Ultra's?
Anyone have experience with 50 milers? Thinking of trying one, note sure where to get a plan or how to start...any ideas, advice etc? Thanks
JC
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Anyone have experience with 50 milers? Thinking of trying one, note sure where to get a plan or how to start...any ideas, advice etc? Thanks
JC
Comments
Tracy Wood has done several I believe. You should PM her.
Yep, I have done them. And 50k's and 100k's. My favorite race apparel is on my AR50 jacket and on the back it says, "So you ran a marathon . . . . how cute."
Mike Hedman is our current EN ultra stud.
What event are you looks at doing and when is it? What kind of questions do you have?
John
I did JFK50 back in 2008 - really liked it. My only issue with that race was the mind-numbing flatness for 27 miles along the river. I was SO happy to finally see tar and run up a hill!
I had wanted to do Canadaigua Lake 50 in western NY state this weekend, but ended up doing Pumpkinman Sprint and Half Iron races in September instead. Maybe next year. Another I was interested in was the AR50 that John did. Looks like a great run! Hey John, do they still give those jackets out at AR50? I want one!
Being more of a run junkie than Tri-nut, I'd say if you have a desire to go long - do it. Pacing and base mileage are key.
Run Strong
JC,
.
I've done five 50's in the last 13 months, so hopefully I can share some helpful tips
First, I wrote a long article on trail running in the wiki, so that should give you a start. There's lots of info on gear, safety, etc. I have been scheming about writing an article specifically on ultras, maybe after we go back and forth a couple of times I'll pull it all together from our q and a. In my experience, 95% of ultras are mostly trails.
I started by volunteering at an ultra - and I specifically asked to be at an aid station out on the course. This taught me a lot about what people were wearing, how they were running, eating (the 'vibe' is much different than at tris and shorter running races). Many groups that put on trail races will give you a 1/2 off credit for a future race if you volunteer, which is an additional perk.
Next, go do it! I'm fortunate here in Northern Cal - there are LOTS of races, most with shorter options. I can tell you, 30k on a hilly trail, while not technically an 'ultra' is a difficult challenge, and a great place to start. The next popular distance is 50k - right around 31 miles. A 50k teaches you REAL ultra skills. You MUST pace properly, nutrition becomes key (since it's typically in the 6 hour range), and you learn that walking the uphills = success. At the 50k level you also start getting into the cool schwag - nice tech shirts typically!
The leap from 50k to 50 miles is a big one - but not as hard as you might think IF you've learned the lessons at 50k. While most Ironman athletes could knock off a 50k without much prep, I think 50 miles is a different story. If you try to run it like a stand alone mary, you will die. Most 50 milers have considerable altitude changes - in fact, races directors seem to take pride in their climbs (while most regular races brag about how FLAT their running courses are). And as for schwag, at 50 miles you are typically talking about a nice jacket or similar.
Then there are 100k races, and the premiere races are the 100 milers. As you might expect, these are both very large undertakings. Finishing 100 miles is typically a 24-30 hour challenge - so while the physical aspects are insane, so are the mental and logistical challenges. I have never raced a 100 for myself, but I have paced two people in 100 mile races. This is another way to gain HUGE amounts of experience and knowledge...for free!! You get to run the course, eat the aid station food, and enjoy some great company. If you are looking to race past 50 miles, I would STRONGLY encourage you to pace another runner. Some races have discussion forums (or Facebook groups) that will light up with requests for pacers in the months before a race.
As for the EN training/racing philosophies and ultras...I think they work very well. If you Google how to prepare for a 50 miler, you will be bombarded by articles suggesting 30 mile training runs. I average 5 mph on trail training runs, and I can guarantee you that I don't go out for 6 hours!!! I do gravitate to longish intervals, 1 and 2 mile repeats, sometimes I will find a 2-3 mile loop up a hill and just go round and round. And yes, you DO need to build up volume, but I don't think I've ever gone over 19 miles on a training run. I'm of the opinion that consistent solid work is the way to go (rather than 6 hour runs followed by 4 recovery days).
I also found that doing hard work in the hills spilled over to my bike, even though I wasn't riding much. So I don't see ultras cutting into your triathlon success too much. Of course, if your goal is a podium spot in an IM race, don't start trying to convince yourself that ultras will be the best way to train for the bike. While I didn't find that my FTP suffered, it also didn't go up like I'm sure it would have if I had actually been sitting in a saddle.
As others have asked - where do you live? I will race the American River 50 again in 2011. The calendar at the Ultrarunning magazine website is one of the most comprehensive lists of ultras. I would start there to find races. The Run100s site has a lot of info and event listings as well.
Mike
Thanks as always for the awesome replies. I live in Connecticut but for the right race would be willing to travel. I am not looking at any specific events yet, just kind of looking for my next challenge. I don't have a huge endurance resume, 1 IM, 5 HIM's and 1 marathon. Yup, just a greenback compared to you guys
Mike, I read your article. Great job, very informative. Wow, had no idea this even existed! Amazing. I have to say that at heart, I am a city slicker and the idea of poison ivy and fighting over mountain lion (or muskrats for that matter) is enough to keep me in the pain cave all year! Safe and sweating my @#$* off! Yikes. Are they mostly trail runs or are there some races that use roads far from the threat of godzilla?
So I guess at this point, I am looking for a race somewhere, Northeast would be cool but open to suggestions and I think it would have to be a road race (forgive my wimpdom)....
So happy to wake up and see you guys in the thread. Love EN, great place.
JC
That said, JFK50 would probably be an option for you to check into. It's in Maryland (along the WV boarder) and while the first section is on the Appalachian Trail, much of the race is on the C&O Canal toe path (think hard pack dirt/pea gravel footing, flat) and the final 10 miles is on the road.
Looking at the JFK50...looks like fun! Saw a few YT videos on it...certainly not the M-DOT hoopla huh?
JC, nothing wrong with looking to stay comfortable...for your first
. Again, I would look at the Ultrarunning magazine's calendar. On the search window there's an option for terrain, and you can filter to see races only on pavement, or groomed trails. But staying on the road adds some significant drawbacks as well. Not only will you miss seeing cool critters, you also will be putting a lot more strain on your body. Running 30 miles on pavement takes a toll that you just wouldn't get trail running. Also, running on uneven surfaces will tend to strengthen your feet, ankles, and legs in ways you would not get on a road.
And you're right, ultras tend to be terribly laid back, gererally the polar opposite of the hoopla of an Ironman.
Mike
Ultra's are the anti-IM races. Usually older crowd, way laid back and not much spandex. And you can tell an ultra runner is serious if he has gaiters on. Especially Dirty Girls (http://www.dirtygirlgaiters.com)
(I heave the American Flag gaiters). I went to one large Ultra event that was a 50 miler and 100 miler and the expo was one (yes, one) 10x10 EZ Up canopy. No schwag for sale, etc. Just handing out bibs. Totally cool.
As far as terrain, Mike made all the points. In NorCal almost all 50's are a minimum of 5,000 feet of climbing over the 50 and many with elevations reaching 9,000+ feet above sea level. Our view of ultra running is a little skewed compared to many other parts of the country. I know JFK has ~ 1,500 of climbing over the 50 miles. We have one here that has 1,500 feet of climbing in the last 3 miles alone.
My suggestion is look at terrain first, then elevation gain, then locale. Best to find a well established one also.
Lastly, and it really is dependent on the elevations gain, etc., but my ultra friends who have done IM seem to agree that a 50 is between a HIM and an IM and 75 miles is the equivalent to an IM. Maybe that will give you some perspective on the effort involved in doing a 50.
Hope this helps.
John
JC-
Mike and Jhn are more experience ultra runners than me, all good suggestions. I have done a bunch of 50 ks ( CrownKing scramble in Phoenix) not sure if they are doing that one anymore though.
My 50 miler is the avalon 50 mile run on catalina Island in california. Can't say enough good things about it. Just love it. It is usually the 3rd weekend in january. Cool think about it is it is mostly jeep/fire roads, some pavement- so no posion IVY risk, never saw a mtn lion. You do get to see an occasional buffalo. People are laid back as John said
http://www.avalon50.com/
Another race closer to home for you is the Vermont 50. I have never done, but heard good things about it. Downside is it is a shared race with mtn bikers.
Have to look into it, there is a spring race in Maryland, highly rated by Trail running magazine, need to find the name. Another spring race, never did, in virginia is the Bull Run(?). Ultra magazine and trail running good resources
Good luck! Just love ultras.
Oh I did my first 50 in 2002, did my 1st Im later that year, thought it was great prep mental toughness wise for IM. I think the reverse is true. After that 1st 50, one of the experienced ultra runners told me there are 2 parts of training for the ultras, the run and the party after
Also, the vibe I get is that you guys think the laid back non-hoopla of it all is actually kind of a cool aspect of these races. That is an interesting thing to me...makes me also think about the non-MDOT iron distance races but that is for another thread.
Jeremiah-
Just thought of another trail run in MA, usually in November. Stonecat 50 and trail marathon. Never did this one, but also hear good things about it http://www.gaconline.net/scmain.html
While I was in CT for anesthesia school- found these guys, but never wound up running with them. They could be great resource for you.http://www.shenipsitstriders.org/
I ran lots of trails when I lived in AZ and was big into ultras. Have not done as much since on east coast. I am presently in a boot, so no running for me, my ultra career may be over
. I prefer running trails
Ok, a couple more.
The one in MD, the Hat 50- already full, but will have wait list. This is the on that had a good review in trail runner IIRC http://www.hatrun.com/
The Bull Run Run 50 in Northern VA- http://www.vhtrc.org/brr/
All on my wish list
Planning to do OS starting in November, but considering modifying to ensure that I get at least one weekend day to do some mountain running (on roads), snowshoeing or backcountry skiing (off trail). I feel like building some of the ascending and altitude capability will be important through the winter so that once the snow is off the trails I'll be able to run. Maybe OS isn't a great idea, but my thought process is that the intensity in the OS will help tune the engine, while the bike element will keep me from running all the time. Generally I think the gig come spring will be building time on the feet, the ability to run on tired legs, as well as foot, ankle, knee, and hip strength.
Thoughts are welcome...but I don't want to hijack Jeremiah's thread! (or did I already do that? If so, you can tell me to back the bus up!)
Here's my plan for training for an ultra season through the Out Season: I'll be switching the mid week workouts to add another run in. So I'll do the Wed run on Tues, Tues bike on Wed, then some longish (1- 1.5hr) run on Thurs. I'll keep the bike on Sat, but extend out the Sun run some by keeping the intense work in the plan, then adding some race pace time (which is pretty slow, 9-10min pace).
Olivia, start up a new thread telling us about this 6 day race - i might be doing a 6 day desert run!
JC, I actually do the most of my runs on the road, just because it's convenient. I then sneak out to the trails on the weekend. I'm fortunate to have some hilly roads a few minutes from my house. So while I'm not on the trail during the week, I generally get some hill work in most days.
Mike
Mike- I wanted to do catalina this year, but it won't happen this year due to my injury, maybe 2012? Fingers crossed. I want my 250 mile plaque for doing it 5 times, I have done it 4x
I think it is a good race for a first time 50. Not to technical, but climbing. lots of up and down
JC- i think you are in a good place from your NYC marathon training to be able to do catalina if interested
Catalina is on my to-do list also (and swim the Catalina Island channel, but that is another topic). Not gonna be able to do it in 2011 but would love to be part of an EN contingent for 2012.
@Mike - Actually . . . . . . . . . . . . a couple of years ago a buddy and I mapped out a 1,000 mile bike across Europe to the Marathon de Sable start line (150 mile, 5 day stage run race across the Sahara Desert), do that event and the fly to the start and swim the English Channel. But two key things popped out that thwarted our plans. 1) MdS and start of Channel swimming didn't line up, and 2) my wifes response to the proposal, "NO, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! And NO!" Nuff said.
However, a swim from Palos Verdes to Avalon and then run 50 *might* be more palpable for her?
I am willing to discuss if you are . . . . . . .
John - in 2012
. But I just spent some time looking into it...and a January crossing would be a particular challenge. I think I would only think about it with a wetsuit (yes, I realize this is a no-no in the channel swimming community, but my 0.0000003% body fat says 'put on the suit, idiot!').
m
This is the 'How John Stark got me back into ultras' response
. I used to run ultras in the 90s and finished American River 50 mile 3 times with a PR of 8:20. I was at IMCDA in 2009 and John was wearing his AR 50 jacket. It got me thinking how much fun I used to have doing train runs (plus I had jacket envy!!!
. Well the wife got a new horse and it is now old enough to ride trails, so I started to run trails with the wife on horseback. Now I really enjoy meeting her on the trails to run. It is a total different experience than running on the road. Yes I take my Garmin, but I could care less about pace because you are either going up or down or avoiding roots, etc.
When you go to a trail event (I don't call them races because very few people have the race mentality) it is like going to a family reunion. Everyone seems to know each other and it is a very welcoming community. There are lots of "characters" and colorful personalities. I would suggest that you train on some trails to get used to the footing, what shoes will work, etc.
I like the idea of the Avalon 50 in 2012. We could get a good EN group and take over Avalon after the race.
Count me out on the swim though. Too many of those "guys in the gray suits" that swim in the 22 mile channel between California and Catalina Island. You Northern Cal guys might be used to cold water and sharks (Tiburons in Spanish) but I like when I am a little more near the top of the food chain.
Yano - I have a couple of those jackets. I coulda saved you all that training and just given you one of my extras from previous years.
Glad you had a good time. And glad to see you piping in again. EN needs you around more.
And, ya, good point on the shoes. Road shoes don't necessarily translate to trails very well. I wear Asics 2150's for road and the equivalent trail version by Asics. Many of my friends wear different brands for each.
@Chad - Welcome to the "Dark Side."
@Mike - HTFU!
Just kidding. 
I talked to my wife about this and got no support. Oh well.
American River 50 is also on my wish list!
An En contingent at Catalina 2012- Yippee! that would be great. We just need to let my foot in on the plan and hope it will cooperate. First day of PT today. lots of work to do, hope I can get it better without surgery