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Heart rate training for the run...Heart or Pace?

Paul HoughPaul Hough
in General Training Discussions

I have decades of experience as a very successful runner, but I've never used heart rate training until the past 3 weeks.  I've decided to drink some of the EN kool-aid and want to know which is the limiter when you set your zones...heart rate or pace?  

I know that I can run a 5K time much faster in the winter than the summer here in Florida, and can go much faster in a race than an individual time trial.  I tested myself in Aug on my own and had a 49 vDot.  The week before Clearwater I jumped in a 5K race.  With much better weather and a 1000 other runners, I raised the vDot to 52.5 while holding back since I had the 70.3 right around the corner.   Based on that test my Z1 is 8:07 with a heart rate of 137.   Since I'm currently running faster than 8:07 with a lower heart rate, I'm wondering whether we should go the slower of the two measures for a given Zone.   That's question one.

My second question is whether Zones 2 through 5 are supposed to be so much faster than Zone 1.  I expected a smooth progression of faster paces, but my Zone 2 pace jumps from just over 8mins to just under 7mins...say what?  I would have expected Z2 and Z3 to have ranges from the high to the low 7s, then Z4 and 5 to be in the 6 min range.   Looking at the entire picture, Z1 and Z5 seem about right, but Z2 , Z3 and Z4 seem too fast.   Does anyone else have that perception?

 

Comments

  • Spokane_AlSpokane_Al
    I asked the identical question when I joined a number of months back and the universal EN reply was use pace not heart rate.

    And I have found the same as you concerning the zone ranges. I just keep drinking the EN koolaid and assume this is all part of RnP's master plan.
  • John StarkJohn Stark

    Pace. 

    EN philosophy is located here:

    http://endurancenation.us.dnnmax.co...fault.aspx

  • cwhytecwhyte

    I'll give you a great example of why HR can be deceiving. I've done 11 IMs and in several of them I had the exact same ave HR for the run but my ave pace varied anywhere between 8:00 to 8:30s.

    Thanks, Chris

     

  • Paul HoughPaul Hough

    Thanks guys, I had it bass-ackwards.  I was staying just below the heart rate with my pace fluctuating all over.   I'll be merging back with the Nov OS after Christmas...might be a rocky first week!

  • Coach RichCoach Rich
    If you have pace, pace is our primarily training tool, especially on the intervals and fast stuff. If you don't have pace in real time (GPS), it's still worth figuring out a measured mile and using that.
  • mgraffeomgraffeo
    Posted By Paul Hough on 06 Dec 2009 09:03 PM

    My second question is whether Zones 2 through 5 are supposed to be so much faster than Zone 1.  I expected a smooth progression of faster paces, but my Zone 2 pace jumps from just over 8mins to just under 7mins...say what?  I would have expected Z2 and Z3 to have ranges from the high to the low 7s, then Z4 and 5 to be in the 6 min range.   Looking at the entire picture, Z1 and Z5 seem about right, but Z2 , Z3 and Z4 seem too fast.   Does anyone else have that perception?

     



    I know what you're feeling, but the system is absolutely correct.  Big gap from Z1 to Z2.  Z2-3 much closer.  These are the areas you'll get a lot of work done in.  It gets more comfortable after a few weeks.  Whenever I test to a new Vdot, the first time I do a Z2 run, I think to myself "There's no frickin way I could hold a marathon at this pace!"  After a few weeks, it starts to feel routine.

    Mike

  • kurshingkurshing

    Paul -

    I can relate to how you feel, I am a noob too, but, I have just trusted in what RnP have been preaching, just 'drinkin' the juice'.  You are not alone!

    Mike -

    Your comment, "Whenever I test to a new Vdot, the first time I do a Z2 run, I think to myself "There's no frickin way I could hold a marathon at this pace!"  After a few weeks, it starts to feel routine." is huge...thanks for that insight.  THAT is what I needed to hear, and I am guessing that will help Paul.  Great insight!

  • Coach RichCoach Rich

    P has a big-ass Running with Pace ebook with Our Guy, getting it cleaned up now. Should help everyone a lot with the finer details

  • Paul HoughPaul Hough

    Mike, thanks for the comment.  I thought Z2 fell off the cliff when I saw that.  I'm fully capable of all the zones, but Z2 sure seemed fast to me.   I'll remember your words when my tongue is dragging on the asphalt the first few weeks.

  • Michele CellaiMichele Cellai
    Posted By Paul Hough on 07 Dec 2009 08:10 PM

    Mike, thanks for the comment.  I thought Z2 fell off the cliff when I saw that.  I'm fully capable of all the zones, but Z2 sure seemed fast to me.   I'll remember your words when my tongue is dragging on the asphalt the first few weeks.



    You speedy guys will see this as slow, but.... before joining EN, I was running 12 min/mile and fast was 10 min/mile. 2 tri seasons and 1 OS (heading into 2nd OS) and 10 is my slow pace. I love EN pace training.

  • Beth_SBeth_S

    Ah, there is a sekrit zone between EP and MP called LRP -- or long run pace. This zone appeared a lot in the summer plans and was between MP and EP. My zone 1 EP last summer was 10:10, zone 2 MP was 8:45, LRP ended up being around 9:15.

  • mgraffeomgraffeo
    Posted By Beth Schwindt on 07 Dec 2009 08:31 PM

    Ah, there is a sekrit zone between EP and MP called LRP -- or long run pace. This zone appeared a lot in the summer plans and was between MP and EP. My zone 1 EP last summer was 10:10, zone 2 MP was 8:45, LRP ended up being around 9:15.



    Beth, I'm not sure what you're referring to.  All the pacing guidance I've seen here in EN refers to LRP and Z1 interchangably (see the link in John's post above).  Never seen a zone between Z1 and Z2.  Is there a blog post or wiki entry I missed?

    Thanks!

    Mike

  • Coach PatrickCoach Patrick
    EP is LRP, we use them interchangeably inside Da Haus. Perhaps she is referring to that "happier" place that the Halligan had been running in, which is like 20" per mile faster than EP/LRP but slower than MP. That pacing depends on the time of year/training cycle and your race distance and your race goals. For now, in the OS, stick to the paces listed!

    P
  • Paul HoughPaul Hough
    Posted By Beth Schwindt on 07 Dec 2009 08:31 PM

    Ah, there is a sekrit zone between EP and MP called LRP -- or long run pace. This zone appeared a lot in the summer plans and was between MP and EP. My zone 1 EP last summer was 10:10, zone 2 MP was 8:45, LRP ended up being around 9:15.

    My secret pace is Zone Zero, aka WUP or Warm-Up Pace.  Being old, my first mile is usually 30 to 60 seconds slower than my Z1 pace.  On most days, it's no problem to pick it up to Z1 after 1 mile, but somedays I would rather just trudge along at the WUP-ped pace! 



     

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