Early Morning Workouts: HR vs RPE

morpheus

I have this scenario pop up every now and then.

plan for today was for a pre-OS workout on the trainer.  warmup, 3x8' (5') z4/hard, cooldown.

4:45 up and cup of joe while I head down to the cave.  Warmup as prescribed, but have a hard time getting the HR our of mid 130's.  Start the MS...first interval, HR creeps up to upper z3 after about 1-2minutes and I have no luck getting into z4....second interval, z3 for about a minute before I hang for the next 7 minutes at the z3/z4 cutoff...third interval, pretty much the same as the second interval.  Cooldown.

Just curious about this...I'm not burned out/overtrained, been resting since Augusta (Sept 26th) and just started back with this pre-OS stuff last week.  Is the time that I was working but not able to hit  z4 'wasted time' even thiough I was working very hard to try to reach it?  And this leads me ask another question.  If an interval calls for 8' in z4 and it takes me a minute to get there, should I start hammering a minute before the set acutally starts?  Is the set a bust if I spend 1/8th of it raising the HR, but not actually in the desired zone?

 

Thx,

Chris

ejbeach01

I have the same problem in the mornings. I think it takes me a solid hour or so from waking up before I am able to be awake enough and ready enough to do a hard workout.

In season I only swim in the morning because it takes me about 15 minutes to get ready, and another 20 minutes to get to the pool and changed, etc. Plus the cold water gets me going.

If I know I have to get up early and get in a hard workout I put in some time for extra warmup and make sure I have some harder warmup efforts built in. Otherwise I really struggle to get revved up for an early morning workout.

Not sure if that helps...but you are not alone. I know several people that are the same way.

dan_forbes

 I wish I could help, HR can be a finicky thing.  Understand that your HR will take time to reach desired zone (if you get there).  It will not be instantaneous.  So give that time, no pun intended!  Also, that early, maybe your RPE is not right.  I know when I used to work with HR, my RPE (especially on the trainer) was not right, I was just not working hard enough, but I never discovered that until I had a PM.  Don't trash yourself, but maybe you think you are working harder than you are??  I don't know.

jburbatt

I found that when I did my workouts in the morning, my HR had a difficult time cooperating vs. in the evening after work when it seemed to respond appropriately. I would make sure that you've done your test at the time of day that you'll usually work out, since HR can be that particular. Originally I had done my first test in the evening, even though I did most of my workouts in the morning, and when I tested the second time, in the morning, my HR was at least 15 points lower when I tested in the morning. In the end, remember that HR is kinda finicky, and to use other factors as necessary to not drive yourself crazy for not hitting your zones. As Dan said, just make sure you are doing the work!

dan_forbes

 Okay, from the other Dr. Phil (skiba), he states that HR is not an accurate indicator for shorter intervals because its lags EFFORT for some time.  He uses the example of getting out of a chair and running up a flight of stairs, the effort is there, but you don't really notice a HR change until you hit the top.  It is more useful for longer STEADY intervals.  Also, there are a host of things that do affect HR, but for the most part they make your HR higher, not lower, which seems to be the question here, which brings me back to lag, and maybe effort.....

morpheus

@Eric....yeah, I plan on tweaking the warmup some, go a little longer/harder with spinups and not start the MS until I feel I'm responding better. Guess that means getting up a few minutes earlier.

@Dan...my sleepy perception vs actual RPE at pre5am could be the problem. Luckily for the EN world, I'm ok with 'just go harder'. I was working, Level 5 sweat puddle, unable to watch the ESPN highlights cuz of grunting, etc. But, could've been that my 'perception receptors' were still a little sleepy. Been a while since I routinely did the early morning thing. I expect my body will respond better as it gets the routine going.

@Jennifer...I really like the idea of testing at the same time of day that I'll be doing many of my workouts. I'll be doing that.

Coach Rich

All good points. To add:

• HR is response to the work you are doing with your muscles. The work is there...it's just that the response to that work is delay, or HR may chose to be less responsive to that work at different times of the day, under different conditions, for a number of reasons.
• In these cases, you should fall back on the RPE guidance for the interval, which is that it should be "Hard." Hard is just that...hard.

This is how a typical Z4/Hard cycling interval will play out over a 20 minute interval. You can extend this downward to shorter intervals as a sanity check to see if you are working hard enough:

• 0-3' = you want to feel like you are holding back, you definitely don't want to be feeling it at 3 minutes.
• 3-8' = you've settled in, the effort level feels a bit static, ie, it's not feeling noticeably worse (yet)
• 8-12' = you're starting to feel like. You should start to feel a burning in your legs and you're definitely breathing heavily.
• 12-16' = feels about 2x as hard as 8-12'
• 16-19' = you find yourself looking at the clock every few seconds...and you swear you saw it tick backwards
• 19-20' = more looking at the clock, more backwards in time experience

That said, this progession above is what I see with an effort that was 100-105%, of my Functional Threshold Power (FTP). FTP, or Z4 heart rate in your case, is an effort that you should be able to hold for an hour on the bike and 45-50' on the run. That hour will suck, big time, but you can do it.

• So you can see that if you dialed it down just a bit, my progression above wouldn't be "as" hairy, correct?
• Likewise, if Z4 is an effort you can hold for 1hr...then I'm not asking too much of you to do 3 x 10' at Z4 with 3-4' rest between each...correct? You'll find that these are games you'll play with your head to get through it.

Bottomline, focus on the Hard, try to recreate that Pain Progression above, and observe your HR trends over time at this effort. You'll learn a lot and, most importantly, you'll become much more comfortable with the pain of hard work. That's skill is just as important, for the EN athlete, as any other you'll acquire here.

Beth_S

My morning heart rate is always lower than evening heart rate. When training for my first triathlon, my group spent time wearing heart rate monitors all day, just so we could see what raised and lowered our heart rates. It was an entertaining and eye-opening experiment. It might give you some of the data points you need here to figure out what it going on.

talltim

I am a HR trainer and have been for a number of years, and can validate all the comments in the thread. Agree w/ Rich's advice to use indicator of speed on the bike (if outside or on a course you know correlates from testing or past experience) or pace on the run as a proxy for effort if HR seems low. Also, as noted 'hard' will work, even if your HR doesn't cooperate. What I've often seen is low HR for the first interval, then it picks up. Probably more from inadequate warm-up than anything else. Keep at it, and you'll figure it out. That or get a PM and remove all guesswork.

morpheus

So, for my other question, based on your post....

if my interval calls for 20' z4/hard,  I don't have to wait to 'start the clock' once I finally hit the bottom of z4, right?   Sounds like, start the clock and GO HARD,  and since HR lags, it'll catch up in a minute or 2 or 3.

Got it, just correct me if I'm wrong.

dan_forbes

 You got it dude!  Once your power (rpe) is there, you are there.  your heart will catch up with you soon enough.  Good luck buddy.

Coach Patrick

@Chris, what dan said...start thqt clock when the work starts!

morpheus

things I tweaked (yesterday's workout): outta bed 5' earlier, for that cup o' joe 5' earlier, more aggressive on warmup with 2 extra spinups (longer/harder, until HR responded), MS...hit z4 much earlier, very hard right outta the gate. Level 7 sweat puddle. Success...for the day.

and Linkin Park in the ears....with volume dial at 11.

jburbatt

Posted By Chris Hardbeck on 22 Oct 2010 08:13 AM

things I tweaked (yesterday's workout): outta bed 5' earlier, for that cup o' joe 5' earlier, more aggressive on warmup with 2 extra spinups (longer/harder, until HR responded), MS...hit z4 much earlier, very hard right outta the gate. Level 7 sweat puddle. Success...for the day.



and Linkin Park in the ears....with volume dial at 11.

 

Nice!  LP is exactly what I use to get me going in the morning too!!

[Deleted User]

Interesting post Rich.  My first bike test for the Nov OS is coming up and I'm wondering if I will blow up or go too easy.  I'm thinking these guidelines will be good to help me hit it right the first time, correct?  If so this guidance might be useful to others in a more easy to find spot...