@Chris - great question - wish I had a better answer. Because R&P like it? Because I don't know better? Because I think it can also import run pace info from Garmin.
But I will tell you what - I just rode my 3 hr workout (followed by 30 min run) and looked at the Power Agent numbers from my old school power tap SL (which I bought about a month ago on ebay) and I think it tells me everything I need to know. So maybe I will just save that money, keep my Mac pure (no windows) and live with this.
cp
All of your Garmin data (as well as your PT data) can be uploaded to Garmin Connect, or Garmin Training Center, both of which are also free.
I am new to wko+, use powertaps, have an intel macbook, yada yada..
I pulled out an old old dell laptop to avoid running a virtual desktop, but that thing is so old & slow, and I have been reading on my options (Bootcamp, Parallels, VMware, etc).
My question is this: TrainingPeaks now has a mac-native device agent (uploader) that goes direct to your online account. Why virtualize a desktop if you can natively upload, then do all your work on the website? Is there something that the actual progam wko+ offers that cannot be had on the site. Mind you, I am brand new to this like I said, but it seems there might be an easy solution here.
After all this, it's time for a summary, don't you think! Feel free to correct me.
Someone pointed out that Power Agent now has TSS, IF, etc on it. I had evaluated it a long time ago, and it didn't at that time. i downloaded the most recent version, and indeed it now does indeed.
So now, again a quick summary of the Mac software I know about. I am assuming that you have a Garmin device that you record all your data on. However, almost all the free software will let you import/export data from one format to another. That said, if you have a specific non-Garmin piece of hardware, you may want to double check the compatibility.
Power Agent (free), assumes you have PT or Garmin (or compatible data)
Bike-only: no rTSS or similar
Gives "real" TSS, IF, NP
Cursory peak power vs interval graph
Pretty nice ride graphing (similar to WKO) with ability to select a range and get TSS, IF, NP
Notable missing features: no quadrant analysis, cadence, power, etc. distribution graphs, no mapping
Golden Cheetah (free)
Bike only: no rTSS or similar
Uses the Raceday/Skiba xPower/Bike Score/Relative intensity, which are very similar, but not identical, to TSS, IF, NP
Nice peak power vs. interval graph. This also fits a "critical power" curve without you doing anything, which in my experience comes very close to my FTP. This adds another "no test" option to FTP estimation. (My last test and the current fit CP are within 2 W of each other.)
DOES do good graphing of power/cadence/etc
DOES have quadrant analysis
Does have a (bike only) PMC - not so useful for a triathlete because you can't add in run/swim
Notable missing features: (aside from being bike-only) no mapping
Garmin Training Center (free)
If you can record it on a Garmin, GTC will record it
Very easy Sync/download
Easily uploads to Garmin Connect so you don't have to store data locally if you don't want to
Flexible exporting for use with other software
Graphing is rudimentary.
Mapping is rudimentary
Notable missing features: No power analysis at all except averages, no rTSS (or similar), no PMC or similar
(Analysis: this is a handy tool to have for moving data to other software, but not your analysis tool)
Garmin Connect web site (free)
Easy sync with Garmin devices or communication from GTC.
Good mapping and community searching (like MapMyRide, etc.) This makes it worth uploading your notable rides and runs to...so you can take advantage of that community as well.
You can download anyone's ride/run to a "course" on your Garmin, so that you can embed turns of an unfamiliar course onto your device. For example, you can download someone's IM bike ride onto your Garmin, and then you can go ride the course without having to worry about making a wrong turn.
Better graphing than the desktop GTC, but not fine control. Also, still no selectable ranges
Notable missing features: still no analysis of any sort. Biggest plus is the mapping feature.
Race Day (~$125)
Good syncing with Garmins, but does require a couple more clicks than it should to do almost anything
Uses xPower, BikeScore, etc, which are similar, but not identical, to TSS, rTSS, etc.
For the run, it converts your run to a Power measurement that includes taking into account hills...so its analysis is power based, not pace based...but the general idea is still the same.
This software is the basis of its own system/philosophy. Part of that system is very frequent testing (3 minutes is recommended.) If you are willing to do that, it should generate a PMC equivalent that is much more specific to you, since it fits your performance data to your workout data. However, its model still assumes that your swim, bike, and run loads are independent to the extent that you do that fitting. This looks like a very viable option for some people, but probably not people who are tied into EN methodology.
Graphing is ok, with selectable regions that can be used to generate lap averages, etc.
Notable missing features No mapping, no graphing of cadence, power distribution, etc. No quadrant analysis.
Training Peaks (free account)
Obviously TP is meant for many things besides the use I am analyzing for here. My principle point is considering how to use it in light of WKO and similar software
Provides an overall TSS and rTSS score. This is the only free software I've found that provides a rTSS score. (And similar for swimming)
Decent mapping and overall graphing, but no ability to select a subsection or find intervals
Will track the usage of shoes, tires, or any other equipment you want.
Allows tracking of nutrition
Notable missing features: No selectability of regions, no power/cadence/etc distribution. No quadrant analysis. No PMC.
Training Peaks (paid account, approx $100/year, depending on how you buy it)
Obviously has all the features of the free account, plus the new things
Allows you to pre-load your workouts and sync to your calendar program.
Is slowly becoming an online version of WKO
Does have TSS, rTSS, etc and PMC
I am not certain, but I believe you get NGP for the run here.
Does have decent graphing of power/cadence/pace/etc distribution
Decent mapping and graphing. Can get peak powers for various intervals. Decent plots of peak power vs. interval.
Notable missing features: At least as of this writing, you still cannot choose a subsection and get the NP, TSS, etc for it. This means you can't use it for your FTP test unless your "workout" comprises only those 42 minutes and you didn't record the rest of what you did. (You might be able to use other software to edit it, but this is a pain!). No quadrant analysis.
Ascent ($35)
In my opinion, this is the best software around for bike/run if you DO NOT care about power analysis... but unfortunately, we all care about power analysis. It has the best mapping and selectability of regions, etc., but the only analysis you get are averages and peaks. No TSS/NP/etc.
Excel or Google-Docs (Google-Docs is free)
The equations for the PMC are pretty trivial and can be loaded into your favorite spreadsheet program to generate the ATL, CTL, and TSB.
WKO (ca. $100 plus whatever it costs you to get Windows going...)
WKO is the standard, and has all the functions that we talk about except:
Notable missing feature: no mapping (again, mapping is not "just" fun...it's also useful if you have a Garmin to download for doing a "course")
Requires that you set up a Windows system on your Mac, e.g., Parallels, Fusion, or Boot Camp (additional expense) and have Windows (additional expense). Most people report good results with these systems, but a few have problems.
My recommendations for a bike-only Free/Low-cost solution for Mac
If all you want is TSS/NP/etc from specific rides, then Power Agent does the trick. (no cadence/power distribution)
If you want a better quality graphing/analysis solution (BIKE ONLY) and are willing to live with slightly different numbers than TSS/NP etc give you, then Golden Cheetah is the clear winner. (You can also download Power Agent and only use it for occasional analysis of tests or whatever if you want!)
Your choices if you want a full PMC and S/B/R analysis
You can bite the bullet, spend a few bucks ($200-$250 total?), install Windows on your machine, and get WKO
You can bite the bullet, spend a few more bucks than that, and buy an inexpensive Windows netbook as a dedicated device and separately buy WKO
For a cloud-based solution, you can spend the $100/year on Training peaks and then use Power Agent or Golden Cheetah if you want more detail for your bike ride analysis as you see the need. This may eventually become closer to real WKO.
To get a free PMC takes a few steps: (1) Use Power Agent or Golden Cheetah for your day to day analysis of your bike rides if you want that [and to do your tests] You can acceptably use one of the Garmin solutions for your day to day run analysis; (2) Upload your bike/run data up to a Free TP account to get the TSS/rTSS data; (3) plug in the resulting TSS/rTSS data to a spreadsheet [either excel or google-docs or whatever]
See my above post though, what do you think about it? I have not used the TP site much, but why not stay 100% mac & use the native uploader then do all else within the site? Does the site not offer all of what the actual wko program does?
As you might surmise, I've used most of these solutions at one time or another and been frustrated. Part of my problem has been timing. I think things are better now, and no one should have to make all the mistakes I did. I'm one of the people that hasn't had the best of luck with Fusion on my Mac, for example, so although I own a copy of WKO 2.2, I hate the act of using it. But if someone out there already has a fusion/parallels system going and they like it, I think there's nothing wrong with just adding WKO to their software collection.
Anyway, to address your question directly about staying Mac-Native:
Your question is exactly what I went through recently (and I made the wrong decision, in retrospect). You get MOST of what's in WKO with a paid TP account, but not all. You just have to decide whether that's good enough. Here's what you don't get that you might find important:
Ability to select a subsection of your workout for analysis. For example, if you do your FTP test and just push the start button at the beginning of the warmup, and then hit laps to mark the start and end of the two 20 minutes sections that are separated by 2 minutes "rest", at least currently, you cannot group the 20,2,20 segment
You do not get quadrant analysis.
The good news is that both of those things are available on one of the free solutions. Thus, if you just want to do those analyses once in a while, then it's no problem. You just make a special download of that particular ride to Power agent and/or Golden Cheetah.
(Hunter Allen posted on the Wattage list that there would always be things in WKO that didn't turn up in TP. However, the TP person I spoke to contradicted him on those two specifics. Of course, for years, they suggested that there would be a Mac-Native WKO some time, and that has now been officially taken off the table.)
Assuming you live in Mac-World, the fact that TP is an annual subscription is less of an issue than for people in Windows-world, since they can pay the one-time $100 for WKO and keep the software forever. We have to buy something else to make it work, and figuring that software changes every 2-3 years anyway makes the annual fee seem less burdensome.
My paid subscription to TP ended with the close of my last season and I chose not to renew it at that point, and bought RaceDay instead, thinking the cost was about the same as a year of TP. Unfortunately, I now realize that RaceDay is nice software, but it just isn't built for MY needs. Now I have a sunk cost, and I have to decide whether to make due with what I have, or re-subscribe to TP. (At that time, the most recent upgrades to both GC and PA weren't out, and both of them were pretty big and important...so I partly just had bad timing.)
Originally, this thread involved someone trying to find very low cost solutions...so that was part of what motivated my thinking in writing here.
However, if I were to start over and just acknowledge that I had to spend some money because I'm a triathlete with a Mac, I think that the paid TP account with GC and/or Power Agent is MY first choice.
Other people don't like the idea that they have to be connected to the cloud or they want to store their data locally. I don't see that as much of a problem, particularly if we assume that you can also use GC/PA occasionally.
That would be fine... I would want to clean it up a bit... but I don't have wikification privileges and am not sure who makes the decision on what to add there.
I bought WKO+ right off the bat when committing to EN, so that is a sunk cost. I assumed I would use an older pc as the workout-only computer, but it is mind-numbingly slow, and I just can't bear it, and there's no way I'm buying a new computer. So my options now are to run wko+ in something like bootcamp or parallels (I have spare copies of XP laying around), or to use the mac-native uploader & try to live off of trainingpeaks.com once my data is uploaded.
I'm not totally opposed to virtualization, because I assume your data is stored locally anyhow in that virtual pc, I just would prefer to not have to deal with windows at all, but that seems like it is just not a convenient reality with wko.
I have found that the only piece of sw that allows me to easily and effectively analyze power data is Wko+. It's a joke in PA and Raceday was designed for an engineer, imho.
You're obviously one of the real experts here, and I surely defer to you on the most sophisticated analyses.
But again, especially for the Mac User there are a couple of things to point out.
PA is not going to get you the level that you can get from WKO (as I pointed out) but it does now extract the TSS/NP/IF for either the full workout or some subsection thereof. That wasn't the case not that long ago. It's free. It's not WKO and not even close. But there are some people for whom that limited data set are enough.
RaceDay is built around the assumption that not everyone responds with the same 7 and 42 day time constants that are built into the default of WKO. Yes, you can SWAG the time constants to be whatever you want in WKO, but the idea in RaceDay is that you actually fit them to your own data. In other words, you test frequently to see how your data respond to your past training. This lets you predict forward in time and lets you dial in your taper, for example. Now, I'm not necessarily advocating for RaceDay, and I think the interface is a step or two below that of WKO, but you have to understand that it has this separate function around which it is built. (The test they advocate is a 3 minute power test on the bike and a 3 minute run, but you can use any test you want. They just argue that this covers it and that you won't test frequently enough if you do long time trial testing.) I also agree that RaceDay is not focused on the individual bike workout in the same way WKO is, and you'd be disappointed if you bought it thinking it was a WKO replacement.
Golden Cheetah is another matter. I certainly agree that WKO is the standard and that those guys deserve a lot of credit for doing all the original development. If I were a Windows user, it's a no brainer just to get WKO and be done with it...and thus further support those guys. However, now that they have made it clear they aren't going to support the Mac, I feel less guilt about the Open Source solution, i.e., GC. (at least for bike-only analysis) If you haven't looked at it in 6 months or more, it's worth a bit of exploration. (My version number is 1.3.0.)
For bike-only - and especially on the now-officially-WKO-abandoned Mac side - the (free) Golden Cheetah is worth a look, particularly if you don't already have some kind of Windows setup. In addition to spitting out the expected statistics, it will, for example
Let you find the n highest wattage intervals of arbitrary length z minutes/seconds (like WKO)
Let you make histograms of HR, speed, cadence, and power of arbitrary bin width that adjust on the fly (with or without zeros) (comparable to WKO...don't see them all at once, but easier to change)
Let you add any arbitrary interval you select (or a wattage interval as described above) to the "lap list" for statistical analysis (similar to WKO)
Make 3-plots of more or less any combination of axes you want (power, distance, time, cadence, and others). You can do power fatigue, cadence selection, etc etc etc. (Some of the graph quality isn't quite up to WKO standards, but you do get an infinitely rotatable 3-D graph, which means you can also use it as a 2-D graph)
Make nice quadrant analysis graphs that let you manipulate the rpm axis, highlight a particular interval within the data set, and manipulate the FTP and critical cadence
Ultimately, there are a few things WKO does or does better than GC, like I think the graph presentation quality is better in WKO. But I'd think you'd find it does more than you think if you haven't looked at a recent version.
Finally, regarding GC, there is a 2.0 release candidate (~"beta") that's available now, too. It adds mapping and even a larger fraction of the WKO type plots and more flexibility in the histogram plots. It's clearly not quite ready for wide release, but it looks like it's getting close.
Anybody here using the Joule with a Mac have issues with mounting/dismounting the Joule? Even when I click to Eject it, I get error message upon disconnecting. Or it will automatically remount itself onto Mac desktop. Thought it might have to do with using a micro-SD card, so I removed it which cleaned things up a bit but issue remains. Anybody have similar issues?
My Joule always disconnects and gives me a warning. Thought I was moving or banging it, but it just seems to be the Joule. I was a little bothered at first, but now I just ignore it. No issues.
Comments
All of your Garmin data (as well as your PT data) can be uploaded to Garmin Connect, or Garmin Training Center, both of which are also free.
Hey all, so I have a quick question here...
I am new to wko+, use powertaps, have an intel macbook, yada yada..
I pulled out an old old dell laptop to avoid running a virtual desktop, but that thing is so old & slow, and I have been reading on my options (Bootcamp, Parallels, VMware, etc).
My question is this: TrainingPeaks now has a mac-native device agent (uploader) that goes direct to your online account. Why virtualize a desktop if you can natively upload, then do all your work on the website? Is there something that the actual progam wko+ offers that cannot be had on the site. Mind you, I am brand new to this like I said, but it seems there might be an easy solution here.
Thanks!
Ed
After all this, it's time for a summary, don't you think! Feel free to correct me.
Someone pointed out that Power Agent now has TSS, IF, etc on it. I had evaluated it a long time ago, and it didn't at that time. i downloaded the most recent version, and indeed it now does indeed.
So now, again a quick summary of the Mac software I know about. I am assuming that you have a Garmin device that you record all your data on. However, almost all the free software will let you import/export data from one format to another. That said, if you have a specific non-Garmin piece of hardware, you may want to double check the compatibility.
Power Agent (free), assumes you have PT or Garmin (or compatible data)
Golden Cheetah (free)
no rTSS or similar
Garmin Training Center (free)
Garmin Connect web site (free)
Race Day (~$125)
Training Peaks (free account)
Training Peaks (paid account, approx $100/year, depending on how you buy it)
Ascent ($35)
Excel or Google-Docs (Google-Docs is free)
WKO (ca. $100 plus whatever it costs you to get Windows going...)
My recommendations for a bike-only Free/Low-cost solution for Mac
Your choices if you want a full PMC and S/B/R analysis
William, that's one heck of a summary, well done.
See my above post though, what do you think about it? I have not used the TP site much, but why not stay 100% mac & use the native uploader then do all else within the site? Does the site not offer all of what the actual wko program does?
@Ed -
The good news is that both of those things are available on one of the free solutions. Thus, if you just want to do those analyses once in a while, then it's no problem. You just make a special download of that particular ride to Power agent and/or Golden Cheetah.
(Hunter Allen posted on the Wattage list that there would always be things in WKO that didn't turn up in TP. However, the TP person I spoke to contradicted him on those two specifics. Of course, for years, they suggested that there would be a Mac-Native WKO some time, and that has now been officially taken off the table.)
Assuming you live in Mac-World, the fact that TP is an annual subscription is less of an issue than for people in Windows-world, since they can pay the one-time $100 for WKO and keep the software forever. We have to buy something else to make it work, and figuring that software changes every 2-3 years anyway makes the annual fee seem less burdensome.
My paid subscription to TP ended with the close of my last season and I chose not to renew it at that point, and bought RaceDay instead, thinking the cost was about the same as a year of TP. Unfortunately, I now realize that RaceDay is nice software, but it just isn't built for MY needs. Now I have a sunk cost, and I have to decide whether to make due with what I have, or re-subscribe to TP. (At that time, the most recent upgrades to both GC and PA weren't out, and both of them were pretty big and important...so I partly just had bad timing.)
Originally, this thread involved someone trying to find very low cost solutions...so that was part of what motivated my thinking in writing here.
However, if I were to start over and just acknowledge that I had to spend some money because I'm a triathlete with a Mac, I think that the paid TP account with GC and/or Power Agent is MY first choice.
Other people don't like the idea that they have to be connected to the cloud or they want to store their data locally. I don't see that as much of a problem, particularly if we assume that you can also use GC/PA occasionally.
That would be fine... I would want to clean it up a bit... but I don't have wikification privileges and am not sure who makes the decision on what to add there.
Another helpful write-up, so thank you.
I bought WKO+ right off the bat when committing to EN, so that is a sunk cost. I assumed I would use an older pc as the workout-only computer, but it is mind-numbingly slow, and I just can't bear it, and there's no way I'm buying a new computer. So my options now are to run wko+ in something like bootcamp or parallels (I have spare copies of XP laying around), or to use the mac-native uploader & try to live off of trainingpeaks.com once my data is uploaded.
I'm not totally opposed to virtualization, because I assume your data is stored locally anyhow in that virtual pc, I just would prefer to not have to deal with windows at all, but that seems like it is just not a convenient reality with wko.
I have found that the only piece of sw that allows me to easily and effectively analyze power data is Wko+. It's a joke in PA and Raceday was designed for an engineer, imho.
Thanks, Chris
@Chris-
You're obviously one of the real experts here, and I surely defer to you on the most sophisticated analyses.
But again, especially for the Mac User there are a couple of things to point out.
PA is not going to get you the level that you can get from WKO (as I pointed out) but it does now extract the TSS/NP/IF for either the full workout or some subsection thereof. That wasn't the case not that long ago. It's free. It's not WKO and not even close. But there are some people for whom that limited data set are enough.
Ultimately, there are a few things WKO does or does better than GC, like I think the graph presentation quality is better in WKO. But I'd think you'd find it does more than you think if you haven't looked at a recent version.
Finally, regarding GC, there is a 2.0 release candidate (~"beta") that's available now, too. It adds mapping and even a larger fraction of the WKO type plots and more flexibility in the histogram plots. It's clearly not quite ready for wide release, but it looks like it's getting close.