Why go over VDOT and FTP during workouts?
Just wanted to post an observation and a question.
We do the FTP and VDOT testing to calculate our training zones based on power and pace respectively. Then we are given the workouts with defined percentages based on these test numbers. Some days are hard and other easy and some portion of each workout is hard/easy. According to Daniels as well as other running coaches ( Mcmillan, etc. ) the slower paces are necessary otherwise we would go all out all the time. That brings me to the observation that many posts I read are touting going way over the suggested paces/ power outputs per the workout for the easier portion. ( ex. did 3x 1 mile at 7:05 and finished rest of the run at 7:20 total of 6 miles )
The questions I would have is why would we go over, on a consistent basis, the prescribed workout? When we do an interval run at threshold and are told to run the rest at easy pace does that mean if we want to or that we should? Daniels says we should. Does this crossover to the bike? When the zone 4/5 interval session is over is the 85% remainder just a suggestion and 95% is better? I don't know the answer.
We are all overachievers and I wonder does this hurt us in the long run if we don't stick more precisely to the plan given. If the consensus is that a little harder is better I would like to know in order to adjust my own workouts. Maybe I am not doing enough by sticking to the numbers a closely as possible.
Comments
Jeff--these are an extremely intelligent set of questions. I know RnP are traveling to FL right now, but I hope they will respond to this. (And I will poke them to do so.) I have strong feelings about this, and have been bashed in the past so I will keep them (mostly) to myself. Let's just say this--talk to those same people new to this EN game in week 12. Or in mid-season.
Many, many have learned the hard way that doing too much, too hard, too fast is a slippery slope. These plans are extrmely hard. Working the plans as written will get you faster and faster. When you overdo it in great enthusiasm, that can (and has) led to burn out, injury, and actually NOT maximizing the overall training effect. When you test and "earn" the right to increase your numbers, do so. Otherwise, being "conservative" (and being "conservative" in EN is still killer), working from where you are now, then testing and progressing on a steady continuum is the recipe for success. And, yes, dialing it back when you get pooped out--even if it isn't in the plan is part of this--but don't get me started on that. 
That said, there is also a balancing act in some of this as self-coached athletes. Rich will tell you to slay yourself--and if you are progressing quickly there are circumstances where you SHOULD go with the extra speed or watts. BUT, he is always very clear to say, that while he may do that from time to time, he knows how far to go so that this workout today/ week does not negatively impact the next day...the next week...the next month. Erring on the side of caution and curbing one's enthusiasm is smart, more often than not. The gains WILL come. They will, they will, they will. And, heck, it's only four little weeks between tests.
Jeff,
I would agree that your are doing a lot of work by sticking with the numbers assuming you put forward a decent effort on the tests. In week one I see no need to go over the values that were just tested. This is a factor of being amped up, short intervals, rested coming in and perhaps a sub maximal effort on the test. Is it doable to hit 110% of FTP on 2X6, yes for sure. The problem is recovery and the effect this has in week 12,16, 18.
My challenge coming in to my 2nd OS is that I took 9 weeks off. I blew up on the bike test due to not riding most of that time and over estimating my FTP going in. I ended up with a 205 with last years high at 241. I have no idea how fast I will get that 36 points back. So by week 4 I may decide to test or just bump up the FTP. What effect will the extra 2X20 have on me? In addition I will have a new FTP and the workouts will become harder at week 4 rather than week 8.
So I guess I would make an argument to consistently go over that FTP in my case if I was feeling really good after 3 maybe 4 weeks on the bike or just test again. As for the 85% moving to 95% I'd say no way that's a recipe for disaster. If you look at the workout is 2X6 @95-100%, not 100. People seem to miss that 95%. Moving the 80-85% stuff to 95% is like doing an hour FTP type workout I would not do that this year.
Two personal examples from last year:
i) I did 100% first week, 101-102 second week, 104 third week and stuck around there for the FTP intervals. I also did for 80-85% stuff at 87-88-89. By week 5 or 6 IIRC I cracked and had to take a coulpe days off. I also did a 3X8 in there when a 2X8 called for.
ii) After doing some dumb stuff like above I continuted to push the 100% through week 15-16. At about week 16 I realized that I was pounding myself and some days had to go with 95% as my target. If I would have kept going at 100% I probably would have needed more time off.
As for the run this is where RnP caution being very careful about the intensity and not to go over. Again on the short brick runs it's very easy to go over the prescribed zone. Stick with the plan on the run for the most part. I'd say if you have the extra energy then head out and do a 5k test and earn a vdot bump.
Gordon
Or, you won't hear this. In which case they were low with their threshold numbers to begin with and they really weren't going 105-15%.
It's very similar to going into the weight room and maxing out on the bench. You may recover and duplicate it the next day or day after, but you won't on the third day.
The best sustainable strength work is 85-95%, with certain days to go really heavy.
Short intervals like 30/30's where you're going 100%+ are sneaky too. People always post about how wasted they are in a later wko and they don't know why. You're intentionally loading and overloading the bar. You....Must......Recover....That's where the gains are made. The higher the intensity, the greater the need for recovery and these plans that incorporate run and bike intensity are, well, intense. Wait and see. These OS plans more than anything else are EN's key to producing good triathletes, in my humble opinion. Anyone can go long. This is where you get strong.
Stick to the plans and the percentages of max. If anything, work a bit lower. If you do partake in crush it today, then crush it. But remember there's no free lunch and cut yourself some slack and adjust the plan going forward. You have to insist on and be disciplined about building in your own recovery time. It's not in the plan.
Or maybe I'm just old.
Great questions Jeff. I have thought of this as well and am also guilty of overachieving so far this OS
Example for me:
run workout: MS at 1 x 1/2 mile, 1 x 1 mile at Z4, rest how you feel but try for more Z3
Me: Do the 1/2 mile, then the mile at Z4, then I still am feeling great, so I rest and then add on another mile at Z4. Then I do some Z3 and call it a workout.
Why do I do this?
well aside from the typical overachieving, I also am using the (possibly misguided) logic from Allen and Coogan's "Racing with Power" where they show a chart of an interval workout, it was over 5 intervals long and maybe 8, and the author's note that it can be beneficial to add another interval if you think you can maintain 90% of the power you achieved in your third interval (I think it was 90%) Now, that section was talking about cycling intervals, and I am using this for running pace. However, I WANT to run another and I feel good when I do it, hitting my threshold/Z4 pace. So....is that "proper"?
I dont know. Its my second year of training, so I have lots to learn!
As Linda states, "very good questions!"
I would only suggest listening to the veterans advice on sticking with the prescribed intervals. One thing the fast veterans have in common is that they are consistent in sticking with the plan, they consistently hit their goals and they consistently stay damn fast without injury.
The cumulative effect come weeks 10 and forward begins to really take a toll just following the protocol. Going outside of that box is not only contrary to instilling the right discipline on race day but also leads to higher risk of injury as you progress through the process.
SS
I'd say this: most athletes over-estimate how much they can accomplish in the short term and under-estimate how much they can accomplish in the long term. Most, if not all of us that have been in the game for a while have overdone the training; too much, too soon. As much as I like to blast and go fast I've learned to actually under-shoot the workouts, keeping the long goal in mind.
Being burnt-out sucks!
The first sign of fatigue is usually a slower warmup (e.g., I had that today after tests on M and W), but that's just a flag to keep an eye out on things, and not reason to pull the plug or anything.
I blame enthusiasm on this. lots of new folks who are excited about getting faster after hearing about all the success they hear we have here getting faster. They think if I just throw one more interval in there I will get that much faster that much quicker. I can understand the thinking. Come the VO2 intervals is when it gets dangerous. Shorter intervals are easy to ramp up the intensity without thinking of the consequences. I know I hurt myself running too fast during the 200s and 400s last year. Won't be doing that this year. Will follow plans as written. It is hard enough.
For all of these workouts, I firmly believe that consistency across months is infinitely more important than how you do in any given workout. So,I'd sacrifice a bit to keep up the consistency.
Of course, I'm all hopped up on vicodin right now, so I may not be making much sense...
What's also smart is asking the questions NOW. I need a little Buddha smiley, b/c I have learned through the years that with EN you often have to embrace the Zen of the paradox--sometimes less is more. Ohhhhmmmm....
Jeff, earlier this week I posted up that my bike intervals were at 105%...and it hit me that I needed to post up a warning message. But your post came up before I did.
I REALLY think we/I shouldn't be exceeding the suggested numbers. One of the recurring themes in the OS has been "residual fatigue". This happens when it feels good today, and tomorrow, crush it on Thurs, then whoa nelly, where did my legs go for the weekend?!?
Back in the early days we had a saying around here - if you want to work past your numbers, you need to earn them in your next test.
I think that's good guidance. And I'm going to try to follow it.
Mike
Thanks,
Rubin
Serve the task, not the master. (Buddha smiley here.)
Hey Folks,
Great discussion and thanks so much to the vets for sharing their experiences. One of the many values of the OS plan is to explore our definition of WORK and figure out what combination of WORK is repeatable for YOU. Learn these lessons now so you can apply them in your InSeason plans.
For me, the number one rule is: "How will what I'm doing NOW affect what I'm supposed to do TOMORROW." So, for example, while I consistently do my 2-3 x 18-20' hill repeats on Tuesdays at 103-107% of FTP, I have a very long history of doing these. I know what I'm getting myself into. And when I need to work these around tempo running, I'll do the running on Tuesday and shift the bike repeats to Wednesday, because I've learned that lesson.
I'm also very aware of what I can do, and get away with, on Wednesday before what I gotta do on Thursday, I know my Saturday in relation to Sunday, etc.
As for the advice from the vets, I'd sum it up by saying to stick strictly to the plan for at least the first 4-6wks of the OS. Then start to experiment with the top end of the bike guidance. But for the run you need to have a long term view of your improvement. Stick to the prescribed paces and prove you can run faster in training by running faster in tests or races.