VDOT improvement missing in action
@Coach P
During last years out season, I saw no improvement in my VDOT, I had been running for 5 years prior to EN, and in the year before EN I was following the Furman First Program (3 quality runs per week), I was expecting some improvement. (Bike was great 187 --> 240 was great).
Anyone else experienced no improvement in run times in their 1st EN season, if so any ideas as to why or changes you made in season 2?
The only explaination I can think up, is the ceiling and roof analogy and that my ceiling is already slamming against the roof, and the 4 weeks of VO2 work just did not push it up enough to give my ceiling the head room to grow.
Looking for explainations / ideas.
Thanks
0
Comments
I went and ran with a local running team and my theory became even more noticable. I could easily hang with the majority of the group 1 runners on mile intervals and cruse intervals and on long runs I would leave them behind. However on 800, 400, or 200 days they blew me a way.
After about 6 weeks of running with them my VDOT went up and I sent new marathon, half, and 5k PRs in the next two months.
I'm sure the 200s, 400s and 800s helped, but I'm ever more confident that just falling off the back and killing myself to try and keep up is what did it.
The trick is not to over do it. My advice is to find other faster runners to run with, but only do it one day a week.
How closely did you follow the plan? 100%? I don't seem to recall you having any setbacks during the OS. Did you?
Good advice from Matt. You're welcome to come out with me anytime.
More likely is that it is really hard to make big gains both cycling and running at the same time. You made a huge jump in FTP and dot stayed the same. If you think about it, thats pretty cool. The conventional wisdom has always been to do a single sport focus to make a big gain. That always comes with a trade off of some sort. Cant not run for 4 months and jump right back in. You had those sort of gains in FTP without losing anything running.
Guessing again but have a feeling what brought you to the house was an interest in getting stronger on the bike?
Chris brings up some good points. How did your run training zones feel? Did you ever exceed them in training?
Lots of great points guys.
I should have said that I did all my work on the treadmill @ the gym last year with 1.5% incline
1/2 and 1 mile @ TP are reasonable, last week I did the first TP work I've done since last OS and did 1, 1/2 and another 1 at TP with 3 mins walk between each. Too much recovery maybe.
@Matt S.
As I was on the treadmill I just locked into the paces required by the plan.
@Chris
My original VDOT test from '09 late summer, I ran the 1st mile way too fast 6:04, the 2nd and 3rd miles were both much slower I ended with an average pace of 6:33, the weather was in the low 80s and humid. I was flat on my back for about 5 minutes trying to get my breath.
The VDOT test on the treadmill half way through the OS I averaged 6:35, 74 degrees indoors no fans.
The 5K at the end of the OS was 6:36 pace, 50 degrees, not on my back and gasping for air.
@Matt A.
I think your right if you want to get faster, it's as easy as chasing the fast boys and girls once a week & trying to hang on
My suggestion is to find a flatish turkey trot in Thursday and run 6:15 for the first 2, 6:00 for the first half of the third than as fast as you can and report back. Gasping for air is a given. I am thinking more along the lines of "both eyes popped out of my head about a quarter mile to the finish while I was trying to keep up with that high school kid, or at least I thought they did, turns out I can still see, weird"
Good luck
What Matt said.
I'm not sure if my 2 VDOT point gain lately is from running every day or running hard 2 days/week -- probably both. Basic Daniels - if we want to get faster, we have to work harder. I have a feeling there's some flexibility in choosing which hard work gets us there.
I am hoping I will see something similar to Robert - huge FTP increase and nothing on the VDOT as I have effectively no cycling legs and 4 years of running.
I think you need a balance of VO2, LT, and consistent high overall volume for VDOT improvement. I am sounding too much like Brad Hudson... ;-)
-weight loss. Free speed there.
-form improvements. Find a run coach to observe and video your running. be ruthless and relentless in your improvements. Fly to Colorado and have Bobby Macgee take a look.
-economy. (I'm bulleting that as an item different from form ... my own personal definition of run economy of minimizing wasted effort using the form I have. A 'form change' in the previous point is more structural and significant. so ... Oversimplified for my personal understanding.) Economy, in my mind, comes from strides and hills done with perfect form. I also found it came after about 2 weeks of Interval Pace sessions (think 400s and 800s).
-Thinking. Same as form and economy, and I've been meaning to write a PSA post on this. ALWAYS paying attention to run form, counting footstrikes to achieve high cadence, having a 'cue sheet' that you mentally run through all the time you're running ... these are low-hanging fruit, and if you're in this for the long game, you might as well get in the habit.
In previous training plans, P and R used to indicate "xx:00 EP run with perfect form' for a number of the prescribed easy workouts. I was sorry to see the "with perfect form" go, because I think that stuff is incredibly important. I call it "the space between words" when I'm feeling all poetic.
...
The usual suspects chimed in when I posted exactly the same question as yours earlier this year. I'll dig up the link and add to this thread, because there was a lot of good stuff. Not revolutionary, but good, solid stuff from the smart doodes who have already replied to your Q.
Good luck!
That little bastard comes to your races, too?
@Beth - No fries for me @ DMK on Saturday, per Dave's 1st point.
@Dave - my cadence runs 178 - 184, I've had a couple of gait analysis, one by Pete Rea the elite coach @ Zap fitness.
- weight, lets not talk about that @164lbs I'm up 8lb's from when I did IMOO in '08, and I need to lose them before IMOO '11
@hayes - Interesting, I got Achilies problems right after the out season, so the run part of the 12 week intermediate plan became about 6 weeks instead of 12, maybe I just need to hang on in there and see what happens after this out season.
@Chris - I have my turkey trot picked out. I'm not sure I'm up to those paces, but I'll try for the eye popping!
Maybe EN yr 2 will be one of holding the FTP and refocusing on the run.
When I was following the Furman plan, I was up to 5 miles @ 6:55 which is 3 seconds below my current TP; but coach P only has us doing 1/2, 1 and 1.5 mile workouts, so it feels a little like I've gone backwards. Maybe that plays into Chris's idea that I'm not suffering enough when I do a VDOT test.
@Robert - My plan is to run nine miles before eating french fries. I'm going to use them as recovery food. They taste way better than Infinit and have more salt.
I'm doing 1.5 mile repeats tomorrow morning at 6:00am. Should I come to the front or back door?
Promised Annette, I'd share her pain that coach P is dishing out over at MN tonight
P
Hi Mike, it didn't; I got sick day before thanksgiving and spent 4 days getting over it
5K's are getting thin on the ground here in Chicago, I may go to the track and try it on my own.
As per Coach P... I always seem to feel like I get a bump in training effect when I start running outside more regularly.