Its all true! I rode last night, didn't turn the fan on until my final interval and it was much easier. Cold room and as many fans as possible = great indoor workouts! I have rollers now, but used to use a trainer, the rollers allow more momentum but it still requires effort 99% of the time. Alex Simmons has a website that touches on this stuff too that is very insightful. Thanks for the link.
I eliminate problem #1 (room too hot) by having a power penthouse, rather than a pain cave. I ride outside on my (covered) deck looking at my TV inside. I live where it can easily be 40-55F any time of the year, at least in the morning.Combined with a fan, I hardly ever really sweat. And # 2 (flywheel too small) can be eliminated with any programmable trainer, such as the excessively expensive CompuTrainer, or more reasonably priced cycle ops. Or rollers, as Dan does.
Yes, power absolutely declines for a number of reasons when indoors vs out. Heat disappation, higher mental cost, solo, boredom, very difficult to detach your head from the effort, etc. In our experience, it's different for everyone and not worth comparing your indoor/outdoor variance to anyone else. The short answer is that its just something that you poor bastards with winter have to deal with, and it gets very interesting around here in April when you poor bastards are inside for some workouts and outside for others.
90' ride in the sun this AM, 71 degrees, greetings from LA
I have two box fans set up on either side of me and end up cranking them full blast somewhere during the main set.
The comment about the difference in pedaling "in vs. out" is something I'd like to hear some thoughts on from the rest of the Team. IMHO I think that my pedaling efficiency improved due to riding indoors on a trainer and that when I'm feeling worn out during a long/intense session on the road/in a race I find that focusing on the form I worked on the trainer gets me past those rough spots.
Yes, power absolutely declines for a number of reasons when indoors vs out. Heat disappation, higher mental cost, solo, boredom, very difficult to detach your head from the effort, etc. In our experience, it's different for everyone and not worth comparing your indoor/outdoor variance to anyone else. The short answer is that its just something that you poor bastards with winter have to deal with, and it gets very interesting around here in April when you poor bastards are inside for some workouts and outside for others.
90' ride in the sun this AM, 71 degrees, greetings from LA
IF it makes you feel any better, your EC coaching counterpart trains in my basement at 50-degrees, staring at the 2005 TDF on top of my washer and dryer. Work is work, wherever you are!
Indoors in my opinion is where you can make some major gains. You're not going to coast when your drinking water, worry about traffic, or having to stop for any lights.
Everyone's power declines when their core temp increases...Period. Everything else is an excuse.
Another thing I've come across is when people are new to training indoors and with powermeters are trying to maintain a certain speed. Most indoor trainer power curves increase as the mph increase. It is unrealistic to try to hold on to some magical number that you've ridden with your buddies on the road.
Absolutely tougher inside for me on my CycleOps Fluid 2. I've got a relatively small fan on the floor blowing directly on my face/chest and during winter it can easily be 40-50deg but it's still HARD. I've recently been able to manage a 2X15 @ 100% (outside) FTP but 2X12 is usually close to the limit. I have a hard time convincing myself that 90-95% on the trainer is "good enough" or dropping my FTP 5-8% for indoor rides. If I did a 2X20 FTP test on the trainer I'm sure it would end up around 245-250 but I just keep hammering myself against the wall with 260W. My goal for the next 2 months is to hit that 2X20 @ 260 on the trainer - then I'll know I've got a solid 270-280W outside when spring breaks and I get back on the roads. Best I've ever been is 290ish just before IMFL in 2007.
So I have a realated question...apologies if it's covered elsewhere in the forums, but my search isn't working (I get an error searching the forums):
What is the right adjustment to make to your NP and zones when transitioning to outside riding from an inside trainer?
I've been riding/testing exclusively on my CompuTrainer this season. First time training with power. I just got my new PT wheel (from Rich) and with the great Dec weather in south Texas and two weeks off, I want to take it outdoors for some of my interval work. I expect that my outside power will be higher and that I should adjust my training zones appropriately, but how much?
I'll be riding my TT bike (only one I have) and have been doing all of my intervals on the aerobars (so expect to do the same outdoors). I would expect to see the benefits of the lower drag coefficient outside (CT set to 100%), but this should only affect speed, not NP right?
So I have a realated question...apologies if it's covered elsewhere in the forums, but my search isn't working (I get an error searching the forums):
What is the right adjustment to make to your NP and zones when transitioning to outside riding from an inside trainer?
I've been riding/testing exclusively on my CompuTrainer this season. First time training with power. I just got my new PT wheel (from Rich) and with the great Dec weather in south Texas and two weeks off, I want to take it outdoors for some of my interval work. I expect that my outside power will be higher and that I should adjust my training zones appropriately, but how much?
I'll be riding my TT bike (only one I have) and have been doing all of my intervals on the aerobars (so expect to do the same outdoors). I would expect to see the benefits of the lower drag coefficient outside (CT set to 100%), but this should only affect speed, not NP right?
George, a good adjustment to start with seems to be 10% higher. You should be able to tell during that first interval if that is good or not. But just don't overcook yourself too much with the excitement of riding outside.
And since you have 2 weeks, maybe you could substitue a FTP test in lieu of some longer intervals. Not sure where you are in the OS so this may not be a great idea but it could be a number that you could use for comparison for when you get out of the OS and on the road.
Yes, you should just see a change in speed since you have already been doing your intervals in the bars. Enjoy the warmer weather.
N=1 but last year my FTP tested higher indoors consistently. Speed is higher outdoors by like 2 mph but power higher indoors. I think it's because my core overheats either place as its within a few degrees of 80 year round here but I can focus on just putting up the numbers and not worrying about anything else indoors. I found a new place to ride shortly before WI last year and will test there this year for outdoor FTP that's safer and flatter so we'll see if that makes a difference.
Here's how it goes with me year after year (mostly a true story):
I do my OS indoors and arrive at 26x FTP.
Then I have a Epic Camp in Tucson. The outdoor riding is good for another 20 watts.
But the heat of the desert decreases that by 10 watts.
However, I'm now paying more attention to my hydration, so this is good for a bonus 3 watts.
Plus I've got my tight supportive Craft bibs instead of the stretched out Canaris. Add 4 watts.
And I'm now in a 'mock ITU' riding position all the time, which is a decrease of 8 watts from sitting up, but an increase of 5 watts from when in full aero position. Oh - and it's windy there. sometimes an extra 5 watts, sometimes 5 watts less.
And I'm doing big volume, so fatigue leads to an eventual increase of 10 watts at efforts of 85% FTP, but a decrease of 10 watts at 90%+ of FTP.
And when I get back, I normally start to ride outside in Canada where it's still cold and windy, so I adjust for the weather conditions and extra layers.
While I am an absolute newbie here, I have noticed the difference between inside and outside. I use my Computrainer for all testing and intervals and all the other cycling I do on my Cervelo with a Power Tap.
I did a few calibration tests using the PT to compare to the CT in the same test and the numbers are reasonably close.
But when I go outside to ride the Cervelo, the watts the PT shows feel (via RPE) to be a bit harder than inside on the CT.
As a result, I am using the CT testing to establish my FTP and then use that number for the intervals on the CT.
I have been enlightened. I am currently doing my workouts in a 72 degree room with no ventilation and no fan. I was a little curious why I start to feel like I'm dying at around 180 watts.
I have to think that my outdoor FTP is higher than my current indoor tested 175. I am 175 lbs and I routinely did oly bike legs in under 1:04 a few months ago. I've just recently started training with power and haven't ridden it outdoors yet (weather). Definitely a bit jealous of Rich.
I have to think that my outdoor FTP is higher than my current indoor tested 175. I am 175 lbs and I routinely did oly bike legs in under 1:04 a few months ago. I've just recently started training with power and haven't ridden it outdoors yet (weather). Definitely a bit jealous of Rich.
We're about the same weight. The last oly I did was around 1:10 and that was averaging like 220 watts (hopefully my next one is in that 1:04 range). My indoor FTP is around 250 (which I equate to about a 270-275 outdoor FTP). Your's should be much higher than 175W.
You'd think so right? I haven't ridden since I did my first ever zero of the Quarq on Sunday. Pedaling backwards 4 times zeros the thing and I had never actually done that until I read it. I also did the manual calibration. I'm about to do the workout today and I'll see what perceived effort is like at the zones I've been riding in. Who knows, maybe my FTP really is 175 and I'm just an aero fool.
(Edit: I did the Z3 portion of my workout today outside because the weather was ok this afternoon. So 5X2.5/2.5 indoors with my FTP of 175 seeming correct as far as RPE goes (watts were between 118% and 127% of 175 for all intervals). Then I rode outside for 15 mins at what felt like zone 3 without looking at the PM and average power was 219 and NP was 247. Maybe I was just excited. I'm going to just stick to consistent indoor training until the weather permits a change to outside rides all the time and go with what I tested at. I'm too tired of thinking about all this, and the ride outside today just confused me.)
Pretty much everyone has a higher FTP outdoors but it's usually in that 5-10% range. Something is askew if you're doing VO2 120% workouts of 175W inside and it's whooping your butt (that's like 210W) but you can ride outdoors at a moderate Z3 pace at a NP of 247W. Hmmm......
@ Michael — according to the bike computer here http://bikecalculator.com/veloMetric.html 175 watts takes 68 mins on a dead flat course with no wind. That and you Z 3 workout outside suggests that your actual FTP must be much higher than 175 cheers
Comments
Its all true! I rode last night, didn't turn the fan on until my final interval and it was much easier. Cold room and as many fans as possible = great indoor workouts! I have rollers now, but used to use a trainer, the rollers allow more momentum but it still requires effort 99% of the time. Alex Simmons has a website that touches on this stuff too that is very insightful. Thanks for the link.
Sorry, I never gave it to you! but the whole site HERE is excellent.
Do a search here. There was a huge discussion about this not too long ago. Sorry, don't have time to find it myself, but it is worth ferreting out.
I eliminate problem #1 (room too hot) by having a power penthouse, rather than a pain cave. I ride outside on my (covered) deck looking at my TV inside. I live where it can easily be 40-55F any time of the year, at least in the morning.Combined with a fan, I hardly ever really sweat. And # 2 (flywheel too small) can be eliminated with any programmable trainer, such as the excessively expensive CompuTrainer, or more reasonably priced cycle ops. Or rollers, as Dan does.
Yes, power absolutely declines for a number of reasons when indoors vs out. Heat disappation, higher mental cost, solo, boredom, very difficult to detach your head from the effort, etc. In our experience, it's different for everyone and not worth comparing your indoor/outdoor variance to anyone else. The short answer is that its just something that you poor bastards with winter have to deal with, and it gets very interesting around here in April when you poor bastards are inside for some workouts and outside for others.
90' ride in the sun this AM, 71 degrees, greetings from LA
I have two box fans set up on either side of me and end up cranking them full blast somewhere during the main set.
The comment about the difference in pedaling "in vs. out" is something I'd like to hear some thoughts on from the rest of the Team. IMHO I think that my pedaling efficiency improved due to riding indoors on a trainer and that when I'm feeling worn out during a long/intense session on the road/in a race I find that focusing on the form I worked on the trainer gets me past those rough spots.
Always need to rub that in Rich right!
Indoors = DCorso's kryptonite.
Everyone's power declines when their core temp increases...Period. Everything else is an excuse.
Another thing I've come across is when people are new to training indoors and with powermeters are trying to maintain a certain speed. Most indoor trainer power curves increase as the mph increase. It is unrealistic to try to hold on to some magical number that you've ridden with your buddies on the road.
So I have a realated question...apologies if it's covered elsewhere in the forums, but my search isn't working (I get an error searching the forums):
What is the right adjustment to make to your NP and zones when transitioning to outside riding from an inside trainer?
I've been riding/testing exclusively on my CompuTrainer this season. First time training with power. I just got my new PT wheel (from Rich) and with the great Dec weather in south Texas and two weeks off, I want to take it outdoors for some of my interval work. I expect that my outside power will be higher and that I should adjust my training zones appropriately, but how much?
I'll be riding my TT bike (only one I have) and have been doing all of my intervals on the aerobars (so expect to do the same outdoors). I would expect to see the benefits of the lower drag coefficient outside (CT set to 100%), but this should only affect speed, not NP right?
George, a good adjustment to start with seems to be 10% higher. You should be able to tell during that first interval if that is good or not. But just don't overcook yourself too much with the excitement of riding outside.
And since you have 2 weeks, maybe you could substitue a FTP test in lieu of some longer intervals. Not sure where you are in the OS so this may not be a great idea but it could be a number that you could use for comparison for when you get out of the OS and on the road.
Yes, you should just see a change in speed since you have already been doing your intervals in the bars. Enjoy the warmer weather.
Lynne
Here's how it goes with me year after year (mostly a true story):
I do my OS indoors and arrive at 26x FTP.
Then I have a Epic Camp in Tucson. The outdoor riding is good for another 20 watts.
But the heat of the desert decreases that by 10 watts.
However, I'm now paying more attention to my hydration, so this is good for a bonus 3 watts.
Plus I've got my tight supportive Craft bibs instead of the stretched out Canaris. Add 4 watts.
And I'm now in a 'mock ITU' riding position all the time, which is a decrease of 8 watts from sitting up, but an increase of 5 watts from when in full aero position. Oh - and it's windy there. sometimes an extra 5 watts, sometimes 5 watts less.
And I'm doing big volume, so fatigue leads to an eventual increase of 10 watts at efforts of 85% FTP, but a decrease of 10 watts at 90%+ of FTP.
And when I get back, I normally start to ride outside in Canada where it's still cold and windy, so I adjust for the weather conditions and extra layers.
In short, way too many moving parts.
Joe Friel article on outdoor vs indoor for a pure cyclist:
www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/01/indoo...mance.html
I like the one posted here in the original post better, tho.
Hi guys
While I am an absolute newbie here, I have noticed the difference between inside and outside. I use my Computrainer for all testing and intervals and all the other cycling I do on my Cervelo with a Power Tap.
I did a few calibration tests using the PT to compare to the CT in the same test and the numbers are reasonably close.
But when I go outside to ride the Cervelo, the watts the PT shows feel (via RPE) to be a bit harder than inside on the CT.
As a result, I am using the CT testing to establish my FTP and then use that number for the intervals on the CT.
When I do my Sunday ABP rides I use the PT numbers and the RPE to dial-in my race power targets — which I then test in the race simulations')" unselectable="on" style="width: 20px; height: 20px; cursor: hand">
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Hope that helps
We're about the same weight. The last oly I did was around 1:10 and that was averaging like 220 watts (hopefully my next one is in that 1:04 range). My indoor FTP is around 250 (which I equate to about a 270-275 outdoor FTP). Your's should be much higher than 175W.
You'd think so right? I haven't ridden since I did my first ever zero of the Quarq on Sunday. Pedaling backwards 4 times zeros the thing and I had never actually done that until I read it. I also did the manual calibration. I'm about to do the workout today and I'll see what perceived effort is like at the zones I've been riding in. Who knows, maybe my FTP really is 175 and I'm just an aero fool.
(Edit: I did the Z3 portion of my workout today outside because the weather was ok this afternoon. So 5X2.5/2.5 indoors with my FTP of 175 seeming correct as far as RPE goes (watts were between 118% and 127% of 175 for all intervals). Then I rode outside for 15 mins at what felt like zone 3 without looking at the PM and average power was 219 and NP was 247. Maybe I was just excited. I'm going to just stick to consistent indoor training until the weather permits a change to outside rides all the time and go with what I tested at. I'm too tired of thinking about all this, and the ride outside today just confused me.)
cheers