How do I become a better runner?

dougiann

Hopefully the smart folks in the haus can help me. I just finished IM Cozumel (race report is posted) and clearly discovered that running is my limiter - i.e. 4:51 marathon (ugh) - really no problems, just a slow penguin....anyhoo, I've got a few questions and need guidance. So, here goes:



I know I'll never be "fast" - but I feel it's in my ability to run a 3:45 IM marathon (my only open half is 1:40ish - I feel I'm better now than then)....but how do I get there? Eddy Merckx used to say "ride lots" when asked how to become a better cyclist - is that the answer to my running? Should I run 50 straight days? 100? Should I run 2-a-days?



Or should I just train like a marathon runner for the first half of this season? I have IM Texas in May then IM Coz again in November. After IM Texas I was planning on doing a few of local sprints and such leading up to a half in early Sept. then full bore again for IMCoz in late November - should I skip the tri's and find as many running races as possible? I just jumped into the OS (week 8) after a couple weeks of rest and am testing later today (thurs) on the dreadmill....

Another thought is continue doing the OS but cut back the volume of bike (to say 80%) and slowly increase the volume/effort on the run workouts....

Any and all thoughts welcomed as I'm quite frustrated! Thanks!

 

mattsull

Welcome Doug,

First of all, 4:51 IM marathon is not that slow. Congratulations.

I would suggest that you do the full 20 week OS. That is designed to make you a faster runner. Training like a marathoner will not necessarily get you there like the OS workouts will. The philosophy here is Fast before Far and it all starts with the Out Season.

Matt

jburbatt

Matt is right (of course!) I picked up 4 vdot points last OS, and I only got through 8 weeks before injury stopped me. And in the in-season I gained another point. It really is designed to make you faster, trust it for the first year as written. In the coming years as you start to plateau you can always add in a run focus, do a daniels program, etc. I would be shocked if you didn't make some significant gains this OS.

Beth_S

Hm. IMCozumel and then Texas. That's not a lot of time between races to work on fast! What is your season plan? Will you start IM training in January? Understanding that may help figure out what the best way is to apply fast.

Coach Rich

Hi Doug,

The OS is your answer but your selection of races (IMTX after IMCoz) doesn't leave you much room at all for a proper OS. That said, please read this series we wrote earlier this year for a bigger picture perspective.

William Jenks

If we take Doug at his word that he can do (at least) a 1:40 half marathon, then a key thing to note is that the VDOT associated with that predicts an ideal IM marathon time of a little over 4 hours. I confess that I didn't look at the RR, but I imagine Coz was pretty hot and/or windy, which would cut that back a bit... but it does imply that there may be some time to squeeze out of the IM marathon in execution, too.

That said, in order to get to 3:45 (as the "ideal" IM time, based on the E/L pace), according to the tables, you want to be in the range of a 20 minute 5K or 1:31 half. Thus, no doubt a good OS is in order!

The calendar, though, is tight. Not sure which OS you're in, but I assume it is that you started December. A 20 week OS would get you done some time in April, with only ~1 month before TX...too close. Same thing is going to happen on the TX to Coz transition... about 6 months in between is not time for rest, then full OS, then 12 weeks. Obviously, you're going to have to compromise somewhere.

I suggest that you bring this to the attention of RnP in the Macro thread and get some advice on how to manipulate the OS/IM combination you need between now and TX, given your "get fast" concern.

Just my $0.02!

dan_forbes

 Welcome Doug.  I wish I could run that fast in an open or IM mary!  I would stick with the OS plan.  If you decide to train like a pure runner, you will not be able to focus on the other 2 disciplines, and if you try, it will probably lead to injury which is worse than being "slow".  Once your season starts, I would stick with the OS plan, a 112 miles on the bike is a very big percent of your race too, and if that it being improved along with the run, you will drop your overall time, maybe not the percent you may be looking for on the run, the overall is what counts in the end.  And hey, if you are well rested and hydrated thru your training and want to put in some miles running at E pace, try it out for a few weeks, but ultimately, stick to the plan, RnP have really honed their craft!

Good luck!

Dan

Al Truscott

To be a successful triathlete, you have to think and train and race like a triathlete - not like a single sport athlete. A bedrock principle here in EN is, almost always the key to a faster run lies in improved cycling capability and bike/run execution during the race. As others have said, the EN training program is correctly balanced to achieve this effect, especially considering the short amount of time you have to try and take the next step. The quickest way to a faster IM run split is to improve your bike speed and strength, and do an even better job at race execution.

spot

Posted By William Jenks on 16 Dec 2010 08:21 AM

 the VDOT associated with that predicts an ideal IM marathon time of a little over 4 hours.  



That said, in order to get to 3:45 (as the "ideal" IM time, based on the E/L pace), according to the tables

This sounds to me like there are some EN tables that predict IM marathon times based on vdot - I did a quick wiki search but didn't come up with them - can anyone point me in the right direction?  And do the same tables exist for predicting HIM run times?

Thanks!

Sumner

dan_forbes

 Try this link Sumner, if you type in any race time with the associated distance I think it will project it for you.  

http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

jburbatt

You can also use the data tool and plug in numbers to see. (Though the runbayou site is probablye easier.)

charris

@Doug: What's alluded to, but not stated, above is that if you really want to improve your running, you might want to skip Texas.  Although I suppose that could be argued both ways.

 

@Sumner: With the disclaimer that it isn't "official" EN, you can try this spreadsheet I put together:

http://sites.google.com/site/garminpower/predict

Coach Rich

One big point in that series I posted, WHICH I KNOW EVERYONE HAS READ, is that you need to look at your race day execution FIRST. The 90% of the IM field that we say doesn't know how to race always wakes up on the Wednesday after an IM and begins to think about how they can solve the build my fitness, how to train puzzle, searching for more creative ways to slam their heads into a wall every day.

Then a year later they make the same mistakes and get the same results because they spent a year trying to apply fitness to an execution problem.

My point is that execution is free speed and you need to look at your execution performance on race day first before you next turn your attention to how to get faster.

charris

So to show William's work, and to see how much "free execution speed" you have lying around using the sheet linked to above:

Choose 1/2 Marathon for Distance, enter 1:40:00 for time.  So your VDOT is ~45.  Now look at cell F26.  4:05.  That gives an idea of what you can hope to run an IM marathon in - if you execute like a fricking ninja on race day and conditions are reasonable.  And that means execute everything like a ninja - prior to and during the race.  And of course it assumes you trained appropriately (if you followed an EN plan reasonably closely, you trained appropriately).

 

If you look in cells L23 and L22 (4:04-4:20) you see a range of best case to worse case times (note: I deliberately did not say worst case).

 

So if you want to have a shot at running 3:45, you're going to need to get your open 1/2M time down to about 1:31 (VDOT ~50).  And then train and execute like a ninja.  Note that the range for that time is 3:45-4:00.  So if you want a more realistic shot, you're going to want an even higher VDOT (e.g. a 1:28 open 1/2M gives a VDOT of ~52 and a range of 3:36-3:50).

 

All you can do to raise your VDOT is train smart and see what happens.  But you can also readreadread about execution and then practice those execution skills constantly during your training and racing.  Have fun!

dougiann

Thanks everyone for your input. After some thought, I agree that I should stick with the OS and the plan as laid out by the coaches - they know better than I! My key will be to stick every workout, race Texas to the best execution that I can (I wasn't too far off in Cozumel, just some lack of nutrition and missing an extra "gear" during the run), then re-evaluate where I am and build from there.

I just tested today on the dreadmill (set at 1.5 degrees) and ran a 22:12 with a bit left in the tank = vdot of 44. So now I know what I gotta do - WORK!

P.S. I showed the coaches my schedule and they set me up with an 8 week IM build for Texas, then adjust going towards Cozumel.

Coach Patrick

amazing advice here Team..thanks for helping Doug out!!!!

William Jenks

@Craig - Thanks for being explicit for me.

@Sumner - Sorry for just assuming most everyone was in on the computations. :-)

@Doug - Rich was much more clear/explicit about making the point that there is "free speed" to be had already. :-) But I'm with you in not having pulled it off myself yet either. First IM was pre-EN days. Second is next year.

GS1962

I am a bit new to triathlon and understand that the run is a different beast than a standalone marathon.  I came at this from running and really like the McMillan site for running.  I started out a 39yo, 236lb heavy guy about ten years ago and found that as my weight plummeted so did my times, however the progress correlated well with my increase in mileage where I was able to get down to around 156-160lbs and ran a 2:56 a couple of years ago when I was 46.  I can say, if you have unwanted lbs, that is an easy way to increase your Vdot.  20s/mile for every 10lbs you carry.  I think the running program they have here is no fluff.  My first year into tris was great because I was able to PR a half marathon and do so with minimal running (the extra slow miles were dropped from my schedule much like EN's).  The most significant changes I made as a runner were weight reduction, addition of Threshold runs, VO2max intervals and when appropriate the long runs of 15-20 miles.  I think the EN plans address all of this.

As for calculators to predict IM marathons, it is much more complicated than predicting projecting a 1/2 marathon time form your 5K.  I have attached a link to another website that has a spreadsheet that combines a lot of different approaches (including EN's) as optional ways to project IM marathon times.  Hopefully one day I will be able to nail a reasonable finishing leg to an IM, understaning it is quite a bit a different animal than standalone marathon.

  http://sites.google.com/site/garminpower/

Chris G

IM run splits are tricky things.  As Rich suggested it is really hard to look at the results and draw any conclusion based on the fact that people execute so poorly out there.  There is also now way to tell what people were trying to run, meaning was that guy who ran 3:40 trying to do so or did he plan to run 3:15 and explode at the end [far more likely].  

Regardless, if you look at lots of results it become clear in a hurry that 3:45 and faster is pretty rarified air.  There are very few sub 3:45 runs associated with finishing times over 10:30 and almost none with times over 11 hours.  

Bottom line, bigger vdot number the faster you should be able to run.  The way we go about increasing the vdot number around here is by doing the OS plan as well as the interval work in the training plans.  

 

spot

 Thanks for all of the replies  - sorry I'm just now replying, I was busy with holiday fun-type things all weekend.   

I'm familiar with vdot calculations and open run time predictors, but I was specifically wondering if there were tables to predict IM run times vs. open marathon run times.  @Craig and @Greg - thanks for those charts, that was exactly the sort of tool I was looking for!  Thanks for sharing-

Sumner