OverAchieving on Cycling Intervals Wiki Post Question & Comments
Great post - really appreciate the content and perspective. I apologize in advance if these questions/comments should have gone under another heading... newbie here still learning the ropes,
While certainly not attempting to disagree with anything in the post, I wonder if there isn't a nuance or two worth fleshing out a bit. Not putting out an effort that will bury you and/or materially impact your downstream workouts is clearly paramount in importance. Making good decisions around effort levels is also clearly the responsibility of the indiviudal. However, I wonder if the guidance couldn't be a bit different for those who are newer to power and/or much lower down on the "progress curve"?
Put more quantitatively and using hyperbole for effect, I would imagine that someone at a 1 watt per KG starting point has less to fear from >1.05 IF intervals than someone at a 5watt per KG (assuming threshold workout was the goal and not VO2). Perhaps even so little to fear that they would occasionally be a good idea (say once a week)
Going further out on a limb, I also wonder if the weightlifting analogy stands-up at a further level of detail. For instance, let's say I am trying to maximize the weight I can lift 10X (my FTP in this example). I test on Day 1 and I do 175lbs 10X. I also recognize that I will save pyramids (reps less than 10X that are well above your inital 10X weight - VO2 intervals in this example) for later on in the cycle. However as I bang away at reps that are 3X, 5X, 8X of 175lbs I will get stronger fairly fast (recall the new to power, lower on the progress curve framing). Simply put, after, say, 4 weeks, I *should* be able to do the 3X, 5X & 8x repitions at 105-110% (or more in some cases) of the original 10X weight. If I don't bump up the weight, I am probably missing out on appropriate, achievable gains.
To attempt to answer my own question and in light of the wiki post, the answer might be "sure, just bump up your FTP as you go per our guidance, but take great care in not putting yoruself into a hole that impacts downstream workouts"
This "faster than verteran progression" will only last so long, but in the beginning stages of one's power career, I wonder it is not an unreasonable expectation.
Comments
@Art - being new to power also, I thank your for asking this question. I was wondering the same thing. I've only done 3 workouts with power and each one feels a little easier, I think due to learning "how to pedal to get more power." I was thinking that if this trend continues and the workouts start to feel easy, I could just test maybe every 4 weeks instead of every 8.
Our concerns are micro and macro.
Macro b/c if enough people post about 110% of FTP work, then everyone else starts to assume that that's what they should be doing (not) and also wondering why they can't be as awesome. That's not why we are all here.
Micro b/c someone will, guaranteed, put themselves in to a hole this year from which their season will not emerge. We are playing with matches here, and the minute you lose respect for what you are doing with your daily workouts is the minute your season goes up in smoke.
So yes to pushing your limits, but doing so with the utmost caution and awareness!!!!
~ P
As a serial underachiever, I support this wiki.
There is some important stuff here. First, you're getting timely and time-tested observations and direction from both coaches who have seen this happening in this year's class, and past years' classes, over many many other athletes. You're getting, in effect, one-on-one coaching here. I bet there were dozens who read this and thought "wow ... I was just struggling with this earlier this week ... Rich must read minds."
Second, Trust the Plans as Written, and trust the plan progression as laid out. Again ... time-tested ... hundreds coached over OS ... bla bla bla. This stuff works, yes, but has also been refined based on a big data set. many of us did many many dumb things over years so you don't need to.
Third, Trust (that) the Plans as Written will Work for *You.* Here's how it usually plays out: Timmy / Timmyettte buys the plan, but thinks "I can go 1.07 because cycling is my strength / I'm just coming off 36 straight months of being in-season / I want to go to Kona and need the edge / I have the Eye of the Tiger." Well, you may, you are, you might, and you do, but you'll still hit a brick wall if you're going overboard. There are a good number of outliers - Kona qualifiers, bike 'specialists,' AG champions, and people well north of 4w/k doing the Plan as Written, and not making all that many tweaks. And it ain't because they're dragging their heels.
Trust your coaches.
One edit and addition. In the post, Rich mentions a breakthrough session, which is an interesting throwback: Before coming to EN, most of us read Gordo's book, the TBB, and others, and our thinking had congealed around '2-3 breakthrough sessions per week, put rest days between." Lots of us wrote "BT day" on our calendars with white space on either side, like we were told. Might be time to rethink those assumptions, because the EN week (while affording recovery days) has things that might better be called "breakthrough blocks" of 2-3 days of solid work, followed by solid recovery. By analogy, think about getting to day 2 or 3 of a 'breakthrough block' as being as important as getting to the last interval in a "BT workout."
Thanks for the post Coach Rich!
Knowing that my FTP is likely very close to accurate as I had a good test and also that it is within a few watts of my highest ever I definitely am in the camp of needing to stick to the zones.
I've been forcing myself to stick to the zones by using ERG files on my CT, but the competitive side of me is ALWAYS very tempted to go harder when seeing the huge numbers everyone is putting up. Instead I turned the week 6 2 x 20 workout into an FTT and proved that I could up my FTP by 10.
Thanks for the reassurance, I'm now good with sticking to the zones for a while longer.
One thing I'll add is now that i'm sticking to the workouts 100% and doing zero additional cycling or running, I'm carrying almost no fatigue through the week. Therefore I have hit the zones without issue on every single bike and run workout of the OS so far. In the past Thursday and Sunday used to be really really challenging now they are much more doable week after week.
Thanks RnP!!!
I know it is posted in other locations but the book "Training and Racing with a Powermeter" by Hunter Allen and Andrew Coggan is by far the most comprehensive book on the subject. A great Christmas gift! To really understand power, still being very new myself, is the key to becoming a stronger cyclist and better triathlete when it comes to "execution" on race day and even in longer training sessions, including bricks.
In essence, cycling FTP and running lactate threshold are the same principle. Both of the physiological principles are the same. Steady-state production and elimination of lactic acid at X wattage or pace/mile. Both Daniels and Allen/Coggan state that running faster than LT (albeit a guesstimate in running) or cycling harder that FTP (still an estimate but better validated), does 2 things:
To me, it really comes down to making sure that you have the correct FTP via testing and understanding that as one makes gains, changing power profiles is the key to training properly.
All,
Thanks for the discussion.
In the end, there's what we say to do in the training plans and then there is stuff we can help you with if you talk to each other, ask us questions in the forum, etc. On the outside I'll say don't do this, don't do that, etc. However, on the inside, with the team, I'm more inclined to tell you to go for it and work a little harder, because you'll learn something in the process and if you nuke yourself on Tuesday we can fix your Wednesday and Thursday.
Seeing Mancona's post above has given me confidence that my plan to follow the OS with no add-ons will work. I really have to do that, due to the low place i'm starting from this year. I will confess to planning to do two weight room sessions a week and two 30-45 minute swims with my wife to re-build lost upper extremity muscle and strength from my inuries, down time in the hospital and subsequent recuperation this fall.
There was a discussion in the Nov. OS thread by 4-5 members all in their 3rd year of doing an OS stating how they felt that they did not feel anywhere near as crushed after workouts this year as in years 1 and 2. Everyone was exceeding prior years FTP numbers and were happy with their improvements. There were some good explanations why people thought this was the case.
I was one of those members, and because I was not dry heaving, or feeling like my legs were going to fall off or the fact that I could still climb the cellar stairs after my workouts I felt I was not working hard enough.
Because of this thought process I started pushing harder, because I could, and was exceeding my zones/ FTP numbers by 15-25 watts every workout.
Initially I was thrilled with my ability to do this, then the hamstring pain came, and has never left. Nothing I can not train through, but has definately affected my run and my ability to hit my run paces. And my legs are sore all the time, certainly has taken some of the fun out of training.
My point is I believe it is more likely to over cook yourself when you've been in this game for a while. Maybe because we are more fit, or just learn how to suffer more, or that our technique is that much better allowing us push harder.
So I think us veteran members need to be even more careful not to allow this to happen. Just because WE CAN does not mean WE SHOULD. To reiterate every one else, obey the plans, obey your numbers !!
Al, I know where you are coming from. In 2006 I was hit and run by a car on a training ride. I suffered multiple trauma with my worst injury being a fractured acetabulum (hip socket). I had open reduction and internal fixation surgery and then had to go 3 months non-weight bearing on the affected leg to allow it to heal. Despite doing all of the quad sets and pool therapy while I was non-weight bearing, my affected leg atrophied considerably. When I was released to start weight bearing I had to learn how to walk all over again. It was 6 months post-op before I was permitted to run. It was a long arduous process but I remained determined and diligent. On the bike 5 minute rides turned into 10 minutes and 10 minutes into 15 and so on. On the run, I initially looked like the hunchback of Notre Dame dragging his leg and running. Same as on the bike, 5 minutes at a time increasing by 5 and so on. The hard work and determination paid off but I just had to keep reminding myself to be patient and listen to my body. Sounds like you have a good plan. Good luck in your recovery!
I'm proposing another EN abbreviation- the IO. The Intentional Overreach.
These discussions are always so analagous to weight lifting. Reading Bob's above I thought, well you overloaded and popped something so now there's a set back. We've all done it; going uber heavy and then wondering why we can't keep duplicating it. But we can, and we can exceed those numbers (the entire point of the exercise) if we just allow for the other half of the equation- recovery. Triathletes simply do not do recovery well. We recover but we don't fully recover. If you're going to fully nuke then you need to fully un nuke yourself. The trick, as with cadence and tapering, is to find that sweet spot where you're back and ready. I'm not talking full on taper, and 2 weeks on the beach, but rather an extra day here and there.
Coach P is the godfather of the intentional overreach. He invented it and owns the patent- hence his lavish lifestyle. It's like the 6 Minute Abs. And it It works if you allow that you have to overreach in recovery too. But nobody likes that part.