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Joe Friel is Right ... For Once

Al TruscottAl Truscott
in General Training Discussions

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2010/1...-down.html

Aero helmets and head position in the wind tunnel. Head down (helmet tail up) is fast, but don't do it. I got shivers when I read the next to last paragraph, cause that describes my accident.

Comments

  • manconamancona
    I gave up reading his stuff about 2 years ago, but I do agree with this one as well. It makes a huge difference and is one of the few "aero" changes I made were I could see a noticable difference in my speed.

    FWIW, This is the same thing Rich and Todd (@TTbikeFit) have been saying for at least 2 years now.

    It would have been nice if Friel used someone in a decent position for the test though. Rich's pictures on the EN blog and Todd's video in the bike fit ebook so a much better position.

  • William JenksWilliam Jenks
    On the "right" part...

    a) Obviously no racing with head down. Not worth the risk. Or so it seems to me. Hell, I stepped off a treadmill when

    b) @Mancona, are you talking about the idea of "turtling down your head"? (as opposed to looking down, which might be faster, but the safety thing is huge)

    I saw the post a day or two ago - I still read what he has to say - and I agree that I was surprised at the quality of position overall the rider was in...not very convincing.
  • mgraffeomgraffeo
    Good to see that JF is only 2 years behind one of his TB associate coaches ( David Warden did a podcast on this in early 2008 with the MIT wind tunnel guys, IIRC). Matt, I totally agree, it's hard to take someone seriously talking about good position when they're spending wind tunnel money to test such a crappy position in the first place...
  • manconamancona
    @William - Correct. I have never done real testing but I have used a camera both head on and from the side to compare my head position. I find riding similar to the last picture in his article (or turtling) works best for me. I typcially am looking at my hands on the aerobars or the front edge of my wheel and can see about 10-15' in front of me pretty well.

    I only do this in race situations or on country roads where there is little to no traffic and I never attempt to do this on roads with traffic.
  • tuckermtuckerm
    @Mike, David Warden actually owns Power Tri and did these tests with Joe Friel. He did a brief segment on this in his latest podcast. The head position debate aside, we all agree "down" is a real bad idea, David said there were huge differences in the drag between helmets. Like lots of minutes on a 40km TT. He said they were shocked. He wants to do more testing to get more data before he releases the names of the helmets and their results. Also, he said some road helmets tested better than aero helmets.
  • Coach PatrickCoach Patrick
    Great stuff here in terms of input, and who knew Tucker was so connected? I have long heard from my bud who runs the MIT sports science center that the actual "testing" that many manufacturers do on their equipment can be quite suspect. Anyone who say TJ Tollackson ride in Kona '08 with his winshield doohickey knows that filling the space between your forearms and your head means more aero...curious to see who comes up with a widget that does this...maybe an aero chin rest????
  • William JenksWilliam Jenks
    Yeah, TJ is kind of a local around here, and he does ride an extremely funky position, including that wedgie thing. I'm sure most of you know he's educated as an engineer. Supposedly his whole setup is wind tunnel tested.

    Warden has a great attitude and tries to be pretty scientific, which I really appreciate. Sometimes he doesn't quite get issues of statistical significance and extrapolation just right, but he's TRYING to do it right which is a lot more than you can say about many manufacturers, who are trying to sell their widgets.

    I'm looking forward to hearing the rest of DW's results about helmets, too. Hard to believe that there's a specific advantage to road helmets over aero, but it's not hard to believe that there's some systematic thing about the way your head relates to the rest of your body while wearing the helmet.

    This has to be known somewhere. Chrissie can afford give away a few minutes to stay cool, but can we really believe that Crowie is willing to toss off minutes on the bike?
  • tuckermtuckerm
    Posted By Patrick McCrann on 21 Dec 2010 06:45 AM

    Great stuff here in terms of input, and who knew Tucker was so connected? I have long heard from my bud who runs the MIT sports science center that the actual "testing" that many manufacturers do on their equipment can be quite suspect. Anyone who say TJ Tollackson ride in Kona '08 with his winshield doohickey knows that filling the space between your forearms and your head means more aero...curious to see who comes up with a widget that does this...maybe an aero chin rest????



    Funny P!  You would be surprised at all of the useless and sometimes useful knowledge I have floating around my head.  I have lots of time on my hands at work.  Love to listen and read.

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