water bottle placement
I have read the bike hack manual and I think I know the answer to this, but, want to ask anyways...
I am considering utilizing the bottle cage holder on my Cervelo, and am contemplating putting a cage on either the seat post tube or the down tube (the angled one). Does this have a big negative effect on my drag?
I have been running an aero bottle (w/short straw) and an xLab mount behind my seat, and am looking at doing the torpedo mount in place of the aero bottle, and then a cage on that down tube mentioned above.
Thoughts?
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Comments
I think the down tube bottle is more aero than the seat tube bottle from what I've read on ST in the past. There have been studies supporting this.
I have a Felt so there is no down tube mount. I run a torpedo mount between the bars and one on the seat tube. My biggest gripe about Felt frames is the lack of two bottle mounts. It makes training a bitch because I don't have a lot of hydration options - I hate the behind the seat options.
Stephen:
I have been creamed by people with all sorts of non-aero stuff going on, so in the end do as Paul says.
However, if you want to be all aero'd out, i recommend:
for 70.3:
-speedfill on the down tube. works like a fairing on the cervelo. just hold the straw down, it's flexible, when not in use. a horizontal bottle between the aero bars, empty, use only for water from aid stations if needed. otherwise stick to the speedfill for the fluid for the entire bike segment.
for IM 140.6:
-regular bottle on the down tube. you can do an aero bottle here, but then when it empties, the cage only holds another aero bottle. in other words, gets complicated. over this long distance, i like to see the fluid level in the bottles, so the speedfill is out, since you can't really see how full it is very easily. horizontal bottle between the aerobars or an aero bottle, but with a flexible straw, as rich strauss describes in a podcast somewhere-i think it's a wisconsin tri-rally?.
make sure you don't have excess cables out in the wind.
stay in aero bars most of the time and invest in a pro fitting for proper aero position.
there is data to show that rear hydration is slower, plus the bottles can shoot out and cause havoc for your nutrition, for others and get you a penalty. there is data that shows the straw sticking up creates drag and even most pros these days are going with a shorter straw or the horizontal bottle.
GH
DT cage lets me drink whatever is on course and not launch.
Aerodrink let me keep down and low. I tuck the straw into the aerodrink bottle so it's out of the wind for all but 30 seconds of the race. Matt A has posted pics of the tubing he used for the straw that facilitates this, but I can't find the thread. If anyone can assist, please do!
stephen:
almost forgot...i like the xlab aero mount that fits behind the torpeedo holder. it's like 15 bucks and places the bike computer directly under your field of vision. if you race with power, this is very convenient to see your numbers throughout the race AND it's aero, since it is behind the horizontal bottle.
investing in a proper aero fit with the EN endorsed virtual fit person or someone near you, with proven credentials, will make sure that the body drag that Paul and Kurt refer to, is minimized.
personally, i like optimizing my set up. it's fun and it is easy to do. hopefully, soon my power will catch up to my aero-ness!!!!!!
gh
fwiw, I've gone many stretches in races after launching bottles for a variety of cconfigs, read all the articles and topics on ST, and played with all kinds of brands of aero bottles. This combo is pretty much where I land time after time. I had used a between-the-extensions setup for all training rides last year, but swapped it for the aerodrink 'cuz it let me pour and go at a feed station. In the end, the usability is what makes this a winner for me.
I agree with Paul and Dave: experiment and do what works for you. What I do (new this year) for IMs: speedfil on the downtube filled with Perpetuum. Nothing else on the bike (I do have a seat tube cage). Grab water or sports drink at the aid station.
I vote against behind the seat bottles - I've dodged too many of those which fell out while rider was trying to find the cage slot. Dangerous for all concerned.
Where do I keep the spare tube and CO2 stuff? Yes, I am riding clinchers...what do you think? I am assuming my bento box will hold nutrition for my IM distance races, otherwise I guess I could put that stuff there.
Tape it up under the seat or put a small 'micro' size bag under there?
Under the seat works. There's a lot of real estate in there that's out of the wind. I normally keep two tubes (they need to be the ultralight ones to fit), a co2 and chuck (or a micro pump), and a tire lever. All of this gets held together and attached to the rails with velcro compression straps.
And congratulations on your Christmas gift!
I've never been to a wind tunnel so take it for what it is worth.
Horizontal bottle cage on stem/aerobars for water bottle. Exchange for a new water bottle at every aid station. Computer is inbetween aerobars in front of bottle. Both computer at bottle are 100% hidden from the wind by my arms. Yes I pick up the bottle and drink it but my elbows stay on the pads the entire time. I only sit up to exchange at the aid station and find it faster to exchange then mess with filling a bottle.
All nutrition for the entire race goes on the downtube mount. For HIM this is a aero shapped bottle with 20oz in it. I re-drilled the holes to get it tucked into the bottom bracket aero like a P4 bottle. For IM I use is a speedfil with 40oz in it. I then chase my gulps of nutrition with water to thin it out. I do not use the speedfil straw holder thing as it would leave it stickup in the air. Instead it is run in between my aerobars and tucked between my elbow and the water bottle cage up there. Again 100% out of the wind. To drink, I lift the straw, take my gulp, and tuck it back in.
All other stuff goes into a Fuel Belt aero bento box behind the stem. This includes tube, c02, tools, etc.
The only other thing i ever add to my bike for a race is a salt stick dispenser only if it is hot and I need a bunch of salt pills.
FWIW, I also spend a rediculous amount of time figuring out how to best attach the bike number at every race.
Sure this is all small details that must people dismiss and say are not important, but I'm a detail oriented kind of person.
@ Bob - don't buy a Giant...my Advanced Trinity has no bottle grommets on either the down tube or seat tube...totally clean.
@ Gilberto - there are definitely a lot of bottle launchers on the market, but the X-lab Gorilla cages have never failed me. I've done 2 IMs with my Giant using the torpedo cage up front and one cage in the rear. I use the other rear cage for a capped bottle with my tubes, levers, etc in it...very clean.
Good thread (partially because these posts largely echo what my research found and what I went with. Which isn't that surprising given that I think I cribbed off half the people in this thread). Matt has some good subtle tweaks that I would like to incorporate.
Matt,
Check out new speedfill areobar bottle when it comes out in June. It is a quick fill refillable bottle where the torpedo bottle holder would go. Also the salt stick holder woks for holding the speedfill straw in place on the aerobar tucked in between everything.
JN
Thanks,
Joe
Sorry, link doesn't work. Lil' help?
Any thoughts/data on a Speedfil on the downtube vs a PD on the aerobars on a P3C? I only need one bottle solution, >~28oz.
Rich,
I don't have the data handy but I recall that a PD Aerodrink can increase aerodynamics on some bikes but not the Cervelo P2 or P3. The Speedfil tested very well in the wind tunnel. Data is on their site. Torpedo mount is another good way to go for you.
It's on Speedfil's Facebook page.
It can increase aerodynamics on the older style & less aero front ends of bikes with less aero shaped head tubes. It hampers aerodynamics on fancy new intergrated aero front end bikes.
Can someone post the bullet points of the podcast? Lazy, don't want to listen to whole thing, basically
Bob,
I ride with the founder, he is a friend and came up with this stuff because he is a long course athlete. I think he did Oceanside 70.3 in 5:06 last time. He showed me the prototype and he said he just put it into production and that it should be out in June. He has showed it to some stores in my area as well who confirmed the same timing to me.
The new bottle is 20 oz. like a typical larger bottle but has a sort of ball in the neck of the bottle that opens with a flip. you then pour in the drink/water and close. Again "speedfill" is the name for a reason. Personally I am going to have water in my big speedfill on the frame and powerbar drink from the course in the new one on the areobars in the torpedo position,
JN
Thanks. Only downside --- more things to consider.
If he wants to send one my way I'll test it for him.
I wouldn't use the big Speedfil if someone paid me. Don't think it's necessary for me. I would use their new torpedo bottle for short course races but not for long course racing. I don't want to fumble around with re-filing it when I can just toss one bottle and grab another.