Limiters in raising your FTP
I'm just curious what you think are the major limiters in raising ones FTP. Age, genetics, size, work ethic, mentality, time ?
I'm 47, I weigh 150lbs, this is my 3rd OS, 2nd with power. I feel I can not work any harder than I am ( without injuring myself, which I've been teetering on the brink of recently). I also feel I have the ability to suffer quite a bit and push myself to the limits. I eat well, do yoga, meditate, get massages, stretch and roll regularly, and study about proper technique and do drills regularly.
I don't expect to match the FTP's of the Halligan or Coach P, I don't have the leg strength or mass. But size wise I do compare to Mancona and Trent. I know Matt is a very special athlete, and Trent is the drill bit, mentally as tough as they come. I don't know if I can reach the numbers they continue to post. I know Matt is much younger, and Trent I would guess to be 5-6 years younger.
So how high can I raise my FTP ? If I continue to slay myself year in year out will it continue to rize. At what point does age become a limiting factor. Do I have a genetic limitation to how high I can raise it ? How would you define or determine a plateau in the FTP world? My outside FTP last year was 271, I'm testing indoors today and expect to be around 250-255.
I am so impressed with the intillegence of this team and the experience that so many of you have, I would love to hear your experience regarding this and any suggestions or advice that you may have.
Comments
IMO yes there are limiters, while you can always make progress I believe some are more suited for going faster than others. As Coach P knows I have been doing this for awhile now and have made gains, but given how I train I should in theory be a lot faster than I am now.
In my past life as a power lifter I made gains easily and if I went back to lifting heavy within about 6 months I could almost be back to where I was.
Just be patient and you will get there.
I'm obviously at a very different place at 30 years old and only being active for about 6 years now. Therefore my focus is more on the micro items that impact FTP improvement within each year or season instead of the larger macro items (Age, genentics, etc). That said I will ramble for a few minutes wiht my thoughts in case any of them can help you or give you other things to consider.
My gains are definitely not linear, for the last almost three years now I have hit periods of 3-6 (or more) months at the same FTP or VDOT. The trick for me has been to stay very consistant when things are good or bad. At some point though I do see a gain (unfortunaly as we get more fit the gains are smaller and take more work).
The mental side is huge for me both for FTP and vdot. Once i get into a few months of not seeing improvement my mind starts thinking that I have reached the hgihest I can and once that doubt comes into my mind it takes a while to overcome it. In fact last year on the bike and run I had to ge out with faster people, stop looking at my computer and just hold on. Once I went back and reviewed the data and saw I was putting out higher numbers I was then able to test to new levels.
Also, as far as limits... i like to believe that there are no limits but instead it just gets much much harder to make gains ;-) I guess it is just the way I like to look at things.
For me I strongly believe that my power profile is a significant challenge (not limit) as my FTP is rediculously close to my 5 min power (my half marathon vdot has also been 2 points higher then 5k vdot more than once as well). I simply just don't have much of an attic and I need V02 work in order to see FTP improvements.
I've also noticed that when I am close to my race weight it is VERY hard to make fitness gains, but right now I'm about 8 lbs heavier and I am the strongest I have ever been on the bike and also in the pool. The run is interesting as my legs feel stronger but my guess is extra weight is slowing me down an equal amount.
At 30 years old I have yet to start thinking about age limits so I can't comment on that.
The one other thing I will mention is that sometimes a change in the type of stress you expose your body to is all that is needed to kick start it. I know that the year I don't make an FTP gain I will be changing my training and will be doing something like cyclecross of going out and trying to sprint with some roadies. Just like my swimming as got better now that I'm swimming regulary with a masters group where I just try to hang on to someone fasters feet as long as possible.
I know this is not exactly what you are looking for, but figured I would share the related thoughts I have.
This will be a great discussion! Thanks for bringing it up. I have no intelligent answer to this one, and as Patrick said, I'm sure Mike and others will. With that being said, I think common limiters are your lactate threshold and your VO2. I doubt you have reached your genetic limits unless you train and have been training for some time, as much as a professional athlete. Sometimes if you hit a plateau, you can work on your VO2 by increasing the pumping capacity of your heart, that is you may need to raise your "roof" (VO2) because the attic (FTP) is getting small (your FTP has reached its limit right now). so in theory, if you can create more attic space to fill by lifting your VO2 (roof), you will have more room to raise your FTP. But, I don't want you to go away thinking that doing all VO2 workouts is the answer, it might not be and you may get toasted. I just wanted to throw that out there as a possible answer to the problem. Maybe you just need more miles? Maybe we work hard during the OS and in season, but don't have the time like pros to accumulate 10's of thousands of miles a year to make that big leap in our LT, VO2, and FTP. Maybe that's your "genetic" limiter there, you have exhausted every minute to train with life in the mix and just need more time? I don't know, but others will surely have better answers.
Dan
Age - Well, obviously. after the late 20s, our testosterone, HGH, and other muscle building factors start to drop. But there are some mitigating factors to consider. Studies show that, for distance running at least, 10K times will drop from age 19 to 29, then slowly rise again, not reaching the levels at age 19 until -- 64!!! Then there's "athletic age" vs chronological age. If you were a competitive cyclist in your 20s, and tried to match your power then when you're 47 - ain't gonna happen. But if you start fresh @, say, 45, you might very well reach your peak at age 55+. That's what happened to me with running and tris - I started at 50, did not PR in running until age 55-59, and in tris until age 60.
Size - as a fellow 150 pounder, I don't worry so much about overall power of the bigger guys, as I do W/KG. But I also believe that I can get stronger within my size by weight lifting regularly. Over age 40, and especially over 50, this may be the only way to retard the loss of muscle mass programmed into us. Even a short 6 week program will make a measureable difference in the lower extremities. At 47, unless you take steroids, you will not build more muscles cells, but you will be able to return you muscle size and strength to what it was in your 20s.
Work ethic - naturally. But consistency and a rational program with recovery are the key, not just mindless stressing your limits.
(Gotta go to work or I'd write more!)
@Al Over and over again, you read about age-related weight/resistance training being an important factor, but I haven't really found the resources out there that suggest what that "age-related strength training" really ought to be. Do you have any pointers?
I would think that the majority of riders are stronger in the Lactate threshold department than they are in VO2, due to the type of riding most people do.
For some reason my strength seems to be towards the VO2 side. I did not qualify for the power hack last year because my 5 min interval (VO2) was so high. My indoor FTP to start this year was 240, but I could hold the 8 and 12 min intervals above 270 without to much trouble. The VO2 work last year was much easier for me than the Lactate intervals. So I guess my roof is pretty high, but I'm having trouble getting that cathedral ceiling up.
So that brings be back to the original question.... Is this due to how I have trained or do I have a genetic predisposition to have a stronger VO2 or does my mental toughness allow me to push through some limits to hit these numbers, but the mental toughness only goes so far and craps out with the longer intervals.
So maybe you are right Dan when you stated that I just need to put in more miles. If so, I guess I have to tell my wife that we have to move out of the North East because I need a longer riding season to get the 10,000 miles in.
I have the same thing with running. I've always been a track runner, so doing more miles is something that I struggle with. When I get my vdot test done, the interval work is not hard for me, but I don't hammer my 5k tests hard enough because I've never been a 5k runner. I need more time out on the road, whether it be quality or easy, doesn't matter. I need to get more miles under my belt to get my LT up for running. Biking, I'm so new to it, I wouldn't know other than the fact that I am weak in everything! So, as you said, your roof is high, you have to start getting the attic closer to it which means working on your LT. 2X20's worked wonders for me last year, they may hurt, but they do work on raising that FTP.
Based on your last comment, I would have to suggest that you may be more of a fast-twitch guy. I'm the exact opposite - going long is easier for me than VO2 stuff that drains me. Could be you are physiologically wired for higher intensity stuff, and due to that ability, tend to train to it. I'm not sure, but I believe it isn't something you can change all that much other than to work at recruiting more of the slow twitch fibers, like with the 10,000 miles or so .....
Any WSM’s with a physiology background care to weigh in?
The biggest thing I've noticed is that it is very easy to get complacent. Humans are creatures of habit and sometimes it takes something big to shakes us out of that.
Last season I was posting on ST about 1/2 mary pacing as I was running my first one. I had been training consistently and felt good. I had done a 1:50 at a Racine half but posted faster 10k splits which put me near a 47vdot. (I didn't really know what Vdot was). Someone commented that if I was training properly I should be able to go a 1:36 or so and posted the charts. My first thought was no way as 8min/mile was the fastest I'd gone in training. I just wasn't that fast a runner. But I got a little mad at myeslf and said what the hell ...did the open half mary hitting a 1:36. Felt fine afterwards. I didn't know I could do it until I was told I should be able to.
Similar things have happened on the bike for me. Yesterdays FTP test was a good example. I started at 270 watts for test 1 but really screwed with my position after that and dropped my front end a lot. I dropped another 3cm in week 4. I felt like I had almost no gain. Week 6-7 I thought maybe I'd hit 275-280 for the test. All day yesterday I was getting mad at myself for being a pansy. By the time the test rolled around I was downright angry and put my angry playlist on the ipod deck for the test. I told myself I was going to start off at 285 watts and hold it for the first 20 no matter what.
First set was 287, second set was 292 for a npower of 286. 5-10 watts higher than I thought I'd be able to do given all the stupid things I'd done.
Irritation and aggrivation have led to more innovations and breakthroughs than motivation ever did.
Don't underestimate the power of the dark side!!
@Steve: I do believe you can convert muscle fiber from one strength to another. Whether they actually change composition wise, I not sure. I do know that the more you train at specific zones, your muscles will adapt to that switch to make you faster/efficient to that zone. Now that I have focused on longer events in my 30's, I am nowhere near as fast as I was in my teens and twenties because I don't train for that kind of speed anymore. Whether my type II fibers have actually changed their type, I don't know, but they tend to work for the longer duration now. Some may be predisposed to vo2 numbers and endurance numbers, but we can all improve in the middle on the LT numbers, it may take time, but its doable and that's pretty much our bread and butter zone for half and full IM training.
@Eric: great addition. The mental game of everything plays major roles too. Thanks man!
Is there a Dr in the Haus?
Never, never, never give up is my motto. But I have made peace with my limitations. We can believe there are "no limits" (and young Matt is totally should be in that space
), but, of course, there are. If there weren't, all of you guys would be Lance, and I'd be Chrissie. I'd be Chrissie, today, at age 53.
The limitations are what has been mentioned: VO2max, muscle fiber make up, age, the mental game--all of it, and more. I'm not sure there is one definitive answer as to why we hit our own personal ceilings. But hit that ceiling, we all do.
So if you:
Then what more is there? Sure we can try a different approach that may net some additional gains, but none of us can overwrite our ultimate limitations.
Making peace is in no way a cop out or a pass for giving up. As an example, mere-mortal-athlete moi is going to the Performace Gait Lab in a few weeks. In going because I want to work against my running limiters. I want to help secure my longevity in the sport. I believe Al and Kurt are true experts like RnP, and that I will come away with a more informed view of my running and a specific plan to improve. I am fighting to work to the best of my abilities, and I continue to believe in myself. I will not, however, run a 3 hour IM marathon.
In martial arts, the ultimate warrior knows when to fight and when to make peace. BUT, he continues strive to reach acme of physical and mental performance--for himself, compared to no one else. I hope, after all these years, I'm evolving into that kind of warrior.
This is likely not the nuts and bolts response you might be seeking, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
Zenfully yours.
(PS--the stupid log-in screen came up and ate my first attempt at this post. I had to re-type the whole thing, and, natch, the first one was more reflective and clearer. That tested my Zen, let me tell you!
)
When I was 12, my dad gave me a set of weights, then in college our swim coach (who was a repurposed football coach) put us on an off season strength program, and I've been lifiting in various gyms ever since. I've seen and talked to a LOT of guys in their 50s, 60s, & 70s who've been pumping lots of iron for decades, and they don't make any concessions to their age, but they've got the strength in their tendons and ligaments built up over the years.
A number of medical studies have been done in the elderly (usually 62+) to look at the effects of starting up strength training, and it helps in lots of ways - balance, mental health, etc. Usually, they have them do relatively light weights with many reps. Back in the 80s, a physiotherapist with the Nautilus co. in Florida was looking at how to help folks in retirement homes use their machines without injuring themselves. He devised a method he called "Super Slow", which did indeed reduce the risk of injury but helped build strength and size the same as a more standard program.
The way I do it, each exercise is done with one set, 4 reps (FOUR). But you take TWO minutes to complete the set - 15 seconds up, 15 down, always in motion, no rest, perfect form. Then ONE minute to move to the next exercise and set it up. Various protocols exist with anywhere from 15-30 seconds for each rep, and 1-2 minutes total work time. If you're going to try this, I suggest using no more than 1/2 the max weight you can push.
There's two ideas here. First, reduced weight on joints and muscle, so less chance of sudden injury. Second, consider the TOTAL work done, force over time or some equation like that. It's very time efficient.
Anyway, this is what I've gravitated to since about age 50, for both those reasons. Here's a summary of associated research. Note that it was superior to standard training in a group whose age averaged 56, while it didn't work so well in a group of "sedentary women" avg age 32.
Mancona is a "special" athlete for sure. What is special about him is his work ethic and determination. He did every single OS workout as written once. Not sure any one else has come close. Thats never too busy, never sick enough to skip it, life never gets in the way, down right impressive. Matt has never struck me at being "gifted" at any of the 3 sports in triathlon but likely works at it harder, smarter and more consistently than many pro athletes. When I think of a gifted runner or cyclist I think of sub 15 5k folks or 5 plus w/kg types. I hope he gets there, certainly rooting for him. If he does it will be because of grit rather than any innate ability.
No idea how true this is [think I read it on ST at some point] but it is after about 5 or 6 years of consistent training that people tend to be the fastest that they will or can be. No idea why but it makes some sense. It certainly takes years to get good at the IM game. Keep plugging away and leave the excuses for the folks that need to have one to feel better about their mediocrity...
My folks, both over 80, just started lifting weights four months ago. They're loving it! They both feel strong and erect, sure of themselves. It's a fantastic example of never being too old to get fit.
First, let's use Phil Skiba's terminology to differentiate between VO2peak, which is the highest you can attain at a given moment, and VO2max, which is the highest you're capable of attaining. When your VO2peak starts to approach your VO2max, you're approaching your genetic limits of muscle contractility, composition of muscle fibers, neuromuscular recruitment, etc. Until then, you're dealing with limiters like time to train, etc.
Now, how to predict where you are in this spectrum is a tough one. Other than doing an intense VO2max block of training (with an equal emphasis on rest and recovery) and not seeing any increase, I don't know how to tell if you're at the limit. I'd suspect that very few age group athletes are at or near their true VO2max. One could use the tables in Allen and Coggan to see where their 5min max power would place them, and if it's getting up into the Cat1 or pro level, then maybe there isn't much more room to grow. But that's unreliable for someone who's genetic potential is a Cat3, for example.
All of us can think about FTP being at a percentage of VO2peak. At the end of the day, if your VO2peak is as high as it can be, your FTP will probably never get to more than between 80-90% of that number. Again, this is genetics-dependent, as some people have an ability to push LT up closer to VO2peak than others. However, if your FTP is only 75% of VO2peak, then you've got some room.
I tend to agree with Chris G, that most of us could have much bigger numbers than we think we could, so thinking about 'hard ceilings' is somewhat counterproductive. If you were to train as a roadie for a season, and race cross, crits, etc, I'd expect you to come out of it a stronger biker. I don't necessarily believe that the answer is just miles/time, but the application of training stress in a manner that allows you to absorb it.
All that being said, at the age of 47, there is a point where one would expect performance to drop off, so if you were to keep working hard over the next few years, it may be to keep the same number, which would be a victory. But fundamentally, I think that guys our size (I'm just a touch bigger than you) can hit the 300 club, it just takes a hell of a lot of work. At 65kg, that's still 4.6 W/kg, which would put you as a good Cat2 or weak Cat1 rider. Domestic pros would be up in the 360W FTP range.
¦Rest and recover in order to do the above over and over again
¦Work on improving your limiters
¦Take periods of time off to rest and rebuild mentally and physically
¦Sleep well
¦Eat right
¦Race and test your limits
¦Are consistent year in and year out....
Linda, I love this! I'll add HAVE FUN!!! I'm loving this, I"m having the best time! This is FUN STUFF!
Thank you for all of your thoughtful responses, as always I learned something valuable. FTP is heading Northward.
Thanks.
@Bob Your FTP is already 4w/kg, a number that many of us are chasing. Is this level not giving you the race results you are looking for?
* Bob, you are one tough mofo...I think your ability to nearly pass out at end of FTP test is underestimated, hence the high VO2 results, etc. Your willpower is insanely strong.
* Bob, I think you have underestimated the amount of recovery that is necessary to truly absorb all the working out (and work! and other stuff!) you do. As an N=1, this is my first OS with 7 hours a sleep every night and I am crushing it.
* As Chris noted, your w/kg is already 4.0. I have qualified for Kona at 3.7, riding 5:27 at Placid on that, 5:14 in Kona, etc. But I am running 3:20s and swimming 1:00s...perhaps there are other places you can make up some performance within your competitive AG?
@ Chris, I did IM Wisconsin in Sept. at that race my W/Kg was 4.12. I was actually very happy with my results. Finshing time was 10:33:00, 9th in my AG missed Kona by 1:49.
I guess I'm being a little greedy, I want to know why someone my size has a higher FTP/ W / Kg and why I can't get there. I know it is my bike that I need to make the most improvement to give me the best chance to qualify.
I'm doing LP this coming July with one purpose in mind. Just want to do everything possible to achieve it.
Your question was a good one, I hope I answered it.
Thanks Coach. My willpower for recovery is not very good. I am struggling more this year with having my body recovered for the next workout more than ever before.
I suffer from small man syndrome. I played 3 sports in high school and 4 years of college football. I was by far the smallest player on each team I was apart of and felt I had to work harder than anyone there to compete.
This attitude has continued into triathlon, which has served me well so far, but as I have gotten older and trying to outwork all the other animals in this Haus it is starting to really beat me up.
I know better, I am a Chiropractor, I advise people all day about these type of problems, I am just having a hard time following my own advice. As I stated in an earlier post, knowing and doing are 2 different things. I'll figure it out, I have to !!!
I don't know which is worse; small man syndrome or large man syndrome (all you tiny guys can run like the wind!). I would think being 150 for triathlon is a lot better than 180 (see, large man syndrome kicking in).
I was just looking at your WI results and I can see why you are trying to find an edge. Oh so close! It does look like the bike is where the qualifiers in your age group have a distinct advantage on you. I'm just curious, how many IM distance races have you completed? Have you been this close to qualifying before?
Is that indoor or outdoor? Running that fast after riding that fast for a guy your size is impressive.
Chris, I did LP in 2009 1st IM 11:03:00 22nd in AG and IMWisc was my 2nd IM
W/KG is a great comparison if we were all going to go out and climb up a mountain all day long. I'd be willing to bet the one with the highest w/kg would win, but we don't do that in triathlon. IMWI (and most IM) have a reputation for having a lot of climbing, but compared to a true mountain stage of the TdF they are nothing. Therefore, W/kg is important but it doesn't tell the whole story.
I'm the perfect example of this as I have riden the IMWI course with RnP. Both RnP were probably around 4 w/kg and I was around 4.6 or so at the time. Most triathletes would think that my 4.6 would leave them in the dust, but it doesn't at all. The reason why is they both have higher absolute FTPs than I do. Even at IMWI there is a lot of time on flat or close to flat sections where their absolute watts allows them to pull away from me pretty easily, but when we hit the hills, it takes me musch less energy to go up and I can pull away from them there. At the end of the day I would bet that all 3 of use would ride within about 5' of each other there in this scenario.
So,the point of this rambling is 4.0 for me at 135lbs is not nearly the same as for P at 180lbs. His 4.0 would leave me in the dust at IMFL and in fact at most (except maybe france, lanza, st. george) i bet he would beat me. Therefore for a small guys like Bob and me, I don't always think 4.0 is enough, but of course that depends on your goals.
@Bob It sounds like you are just getting started and will likely see another improvement in your performance just based on experience and race execution skills alone.
@Matt So the question is, where is the sweet spot between 135 and 180? You have to admit, 135 is on the extreme end of things. 4.6 indoor or outdoor FTP?