Why is run V02 only 100% of 5K pace?

kmepham

I'm puzzled by the run V02 paces versus the bike V02 paces.  We do bike V02 in 2.5-minute intervals at 120% of FTP.  That makes sense to me; I can see that if we want to raise the roof, we need to exercise at more than our current ceiling.  So why do we do run V02 in 1.5-minute intervals (that's how long a 400 takes me) at only 100% of a pace that we've already demonstrated we can sustain for 20 minutes or more?  How does that work to raise run V02?  I realize we'll be working up to longer intervals, 800's and 1-miles, but the 200's and 400's we did today did not feel like much of a roof-raising workout.  Why isn't run Z5 higher than 5K race pace?

mgraffeo

Kevin, there's two things going on here.

1. 5k pace is not analogous to FTP. FTP you could hold for an hour. 5k for only about 20 minutes. The analogy to FTP for running is probably closer to 15k pace for a 20min 5k runner. So 120% of FTP and 5k pace are actually closer to each other than it appears.

2. The lung-burning track interval pace most people think of as 'doing intervals' (especially if you come from a track running background) is closer to what Daniels refers to as Repetition pace, or Z6 in the way we think about things. The problem with doing this kind of work is that it has a higher risk of injury and/or recovery cost associated with it. There are people who can handle it, but it can't really be a part of a solution that works for 95% of people (which these plans are).

Take comfort in knowing that the plans work, and that, while it may not feel like much, most folks achieve results following the plan.

Mike

mkmiec

Mike - great point re: 5K and FTP comparison.  I hadn't thought about that, but it definetly makes sense.  

johnschnorr

I would like to learn more about this as well.

One of the stated goals for the run training (from EN running with pace guide) is to improve 5k VDOT. To improve 5k time, don't you have to spend some time training at a pace faster than your current 5k pace?

Also, Daniels talks about how VO2 max run intervals should be in the 3-5 min range. It takes 60-90 seconds to get up to VO2max, and you want to maximize your time at VO2max. If the intervals are shorter (1.5 - 2.0 mins) then you are not spending very much time at VO2max, unless you shorten the recovery time dramatically.

This is my first time through the OS, and I believe in the system, but I do have these questions. Also, I do understand that the ultimate goal is to have faster triathlon times, HIM amd IM run times, not just faster 5k times.

Maybe I am starting to worry that I am running out of time to get fast. OS is the time to get fast, and my Nov OS is about half done. I only have another 10 weeks to get fast before I have to start building far!

mgraffeo

John, good questions.

1. To improve 5k times, don't you have to run faster? No. There's 4 years of OS experience on hundreds of athletes here that tells us otherwise.

2. I don't think I'm spending enough time at Vdot? First, it's untrue that it 'takes a minute to get your body up to Vdot'. It may take a minute for your heart rate to catch up, but fitness is in the muscles, and they are doing the work from second #1. Second, efforts at this intensity are prescribed by Daniels and many others as equal work and rest. What is being prescribed here is not controversial.

If you were to ask "why aren't we working at the fastest pace we could hold for 5-6 minutes" (which is a hidden question in this line of thinking), then we'd have to talk about the fact that we are triathletes, and also doing 3 hard bike sessions per week, which is pretty dang tough on the recovery side of things. There's a reason Daniels' R pace is not a part of what we do here. The injury risk and recovery required are too high to keep up the consistency for most folks (not necessarily everyone, but the plans are designed for 95% of folks).

You have plenty of time to see results. Many folks see results from the OS only after taking some time to absorb all the work. At the end of the day, work works, and you're working plenty hard.

mancona

Great responses from Mike and far better than I would be able to provide, however I have one point to add.

Always keep in mind that the EN plans are training you as a triathlete, not a runner or a cyclist. While this can be a minor detail, it is important to consider.

Daniels trains runners, if we were simply trying to get the fastest 5k we could, we would train slightly different and would very likely do additional R pace work (faster than 5k pace) and also more run volume. However, we are not just runners and we need to be able to recover from the runs and still get quality bike sessions in as well if we want to increase FTP at the same time.

The EN plan focus on getting you the best ROI on both the bike and run at the same time.

jhbinsc

Great stuff Mike and Matt. Really helps to answer some questions and drive home the point that you can't apply run only principles to tri training.
Looking forward to doing the work! Exciting to have such great athletes chipping in their opinions.
Jeff

atasic

 Mike and Matt provided great answers. I can witness from conducting stand alone 5-15k Daniels program during run focus fall season, 1 VDOT up over 6 weeks, as soon as I touched the bike and swim, it was no longer possible to consistently run R-pace, I-pace and even T-pace in the amounts he was prescribing.

Furthermore, I found that R-pace running loads my quads, making cycling workouts more difficult and impossible to recover for. As soon as cycling started, my paces had to tone down, increase in recovery between T-pace and I-pace intervals followed.......all had to adjust to make it happen. If you look at OS run, that is it, Daniels type workouts, toned down paces at the upper end, increased recovery time between cruise intervals, Daniels says 1min recovery per 1mi T-pace distance.........

Do you adjust or not, that is up to you and coaches. I am not qualified to suggest amendments to OS plans.

 

 

Coach Patrick

Great questions and great discussions. Thank you guys so much for asking and explaining this so eloquently!!!

jburbatt

@John- you'll make some gains during your IM build too (I gained 2 vdot points last summer), it's just generally that people see the most gains during the OS. You may end up being someone that will see the gains during the in-season, or just over a longer period of time. Personally, it took a while for me to see gains and then it happened all at once during my IM build. Don't worry, trust the plans, it's where you stand on race day that matters, not where you are at Week 12 vs. someone else's gains at Week 12

kurshing

I think the most important point being expressed here is that these run workouts are to be taken (as they are trained) in the context of a rolling 7 day cycle of other training activities too. The key is to see gains while keeping risk of injury as low as possible.

Mike-outstanding responses.