Another thought on Road bike vs TT bike for OS: Hip Angle
I know we have discussed this over and over. At the end of the day it probably matters very little but some of us perfer to ride the TT bike on the trainer and others the road bike.
I just read a post by Jordan Rapp that got me thinking about this more though. He claims that triathletes should have a road bike for a number of reasons that I agree with but the specific one that got me thinking is around hip angle.
He shows that if you sit up and ride your TT bike on the base bar you are really opening up your hip angle due to the forward seat position. However on a road bike when you ride on the hoods or in the drop your hip angle is closer to the smaller hip angle used on a TT bike.
Therefore this got me thinking that instead of riding my TT bike on the trainer and spending about 50% of the time in the aero bars and 50% of the time sitting up, would I be better off just being on the road bike all the time during the OS?
The post can be found at the link below under "Why Triathletes *Need* a Road Bike" : http://iamspecialized.com/triathlon...rapp#/blog
So, two questions:
- Do you agree with Jordan and is your hip angle on your Road bike closer to you aerobar position on the TT bike than sitting up on the TT bike vs aero TT bike? (I'm going to setup both bikes and take a some pictures this weekend to figure this our for myself).
- If you argee, does this change which bike/position you would use for the OS workouts on the trainer?
Comments
My road bike is so old that I can't put my PT wheel on it (at least without changing the cassette), so I don't even really consider the road bike that much. (And as I've said in other threads, my theory this year is that I don't want any nasty surprises, so I'm trying to do as much as possible in my locked in aero riding position...but that's another matter.)
I'll assume for now that you're talking about putting them up near the brakes, not actually on the "horizontal" part of the bar.
If your pads are raised up on pedestals relative to your base bar, you'll be making less of a hip angle change (by shifting position) than if the pads are as low as they can possibly get, relative to the base bar height. A simple way of thinking of this is just to consider the base bar position as the "normal" position, and you'll instantly see that raising the pedestals would lift you higher in the aero position and open up the hip angle. So if your pedestals are already high, you'll have a smaller change.
Similarly, if your base bar is straight and perpendicular to the top tube (i.e., no "v" shape), you'll be sitting up higher when holding the braking area than if you have bars that make that fancy "v". The farther forward your hands are, the lower your shoulders will be, and presumably, the tighter the hip angle.
Bottom line is I think you have to just measure it.
My road bike hip angle while in the drops is fairly close to my TT bike hip angle because I am basically just rotated forward on my TT bike. However, for some reason it does feel significantly different than when I am in the aerobars on my TT bike. Maybe there is something else going on here.
I know that others can't stand to be on the trainer in their aerobars, but I have committed myself to training on the trainer in my aerobars for as much of the time as possible (warm up/down, between intervals, etc.).
I believe that I am training my arms, neck, back, and possibly leg muscles to be in the aero position for long periods of time. I feel that I am being as specific as possible to train the muscles how I will use them in the race.
It may not really affect my fitness all that much and may only be my way of mentally preparing myself, but I do find that I am getting very comfortable and feel much more powerful in my aero position over sitting up on my TT bike.
I think that if you can't stand being in the aerobars while on the trainer it might be a good plan to use your road bike and stay in the drops. It won't change the way I train though.
I have always been of the same mindset as most of you and just did whatever allowed me to push the most watts. I will continue with that approach this year.
A few things got me re-thinking that appraoch recently
- I'm racing a 70.3 in April and thats two month earlier than I have ever raced that distance before
- I'm serriously considering IM St. George next year which means a May IM after training indoors through March
- Jordan's article - I had inccorectly just assumed that being on my tri-bike whether in the bars or not was closer to my race position then my road bike
All that said, I have never had a problem making the tranistion from trainng indoor to outside and being locked in my aerobars, it just takes a few weeks. I was simply wondering if maybe using my road bike on the trainer would be better than bing on the tribike but only in the aero bars about 50% of the time.
The reality is I will keep doing what as worked for me in the past and if I decide to due St. George next year I'll force myself to be in my aerobars for the 12 weeks prior.
I agree with William that all of this depends on the setup of our bikes. Out of curriosity I am going to try and find time this weekend to measure my hip angle on both bikes in all positions.
Any bike fitters want to come over and take the measurements for me so I don't have to do video and then review it on the computer to figure it out?
Matt, I hope you'll still post photos of the two setups, if only for selfish purposes of helping me understand 'hip angle.'
I swear, when I see graphics that set out to explain this concept, it's like looking at one of those 3D pictures - I can stare at it and stare at it and the image just doesn't come to me. Rapp's post reinforced that for me when he shows two pictures highlighting "the obvious differences in the hip angles ... ", and I see exactly the same thing in both.
@Dave and Michael - I will, not sure if I will get around to it this weekend though.
In the meantime here is a good article to understand and see what hip angle is:
http://www.slowtwitch.com/Bike_Fit/...le_24.html
@Matt,
1. Fully agree
2. No, I don't think it makes any measurable difference
Further, Dan Empfield's articles on fitting cover this in depth. Road bike (73 degree SA) hip angle should be very close to your TT bike(78-80 degree SA) as rotation forward around BB achieves that.
On number 2 question, I am also a believer that you go out and ride whatever you possibly can, single speed, road bike, mountain bike, spin bike, stationary bike, ride them EN way and you will do well no matter what. Agree with Al and Coach above.
I have spent last 3 years 50% cycling on my bike (tri bike) and 50% on stationary bikes. I have to, as I travel every other week for 7 days and don't have my bike. I can still ride 40k TT in under 60min and have posted HIM bike splits at 2:27-2:25.
I only have Argon18 E112, no road bike. I blew so much money on it that I would have got shot by my wife if I just said "road". So, I ride it on the trainer and road, all the time 100% of the time in aerobars, don't know any other way. If I had a good fitting road bike, I would stick it on the trainer and do all OS on it.
This is by no means precise but as I promised here are some shots of my hip angle on my TT bike and road bike in both positions.
I only had limited time so the pain cave is a mess and the lines are not precise. I looks like Jordan is right for my TT bike vs Road bike. Riding in the drops on my road bike is closest to my TT position, next closets would be on the hoods on the road bike, and riding sitting up on the tri bike is the most open hip angle for me.
I'm not going to change anything becaue of this though as I just don't think it matters enough. I'm sticking with the TT bike on the trainer and doing the WU, 85% and CD in the aero bars. For FTP and VO2 work I start in the aero bars but usually end up sitting up as I can push more watts that way.
The last 12 weeks before a race is a different story and I am aero 100% (unless riding in a group).
I don't have an option to insert pictures to this tread so here are links to my 4 positions if you want to see them.
TT Bike Aero: http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/...an2011.jpg
TT Bike on "hoods": http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/...an2011.jpg
Road Bike Aero: http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/...an2011.jpg
Road Bike on hoods: http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/...an2011.jpg
Well what did you end up doing? I am considering riding my road bike on the trainer all winter and came across this thread.
On the road bike, it seems I, Beth, tend to "cheat" and use worse posture to get more watts.So, TT and locked in aero for me all winter, because that aligns with my goal. -- So, Matt, you are probably fine here, but it may be worth thinking about what muscles are engaged or which bike and why. You may be in good shape and have the luxury of riding the bike you like the most.
I think you're all over thinking it. I think the OS is long enough (note that we are talking about this on November 8, 2011) and hard enough that you don't need to make it mentally harder than it is on yourself by using position/discomfort as a training tool.
Basically, there is no training value in misery, boredom, etc, at least not in November when your first races aren't for many, many, many months.
Just like we advise you to accue training stress vs heat stress in the summer, I'd say that we also want you to accumulate training stress and the mental six pack of going hard vs the mental six pack of in the bars vs not. That is, of all the ranges of discomfort I'd like you to become accustomed to, the one I'd like to you focus on is becoming familiar with turning yourself inside out at high watts vs sorta inside out at sort high watts cuz I'm working on making my next stronger for a race 9 months away.
Regarding hip angle, I'll be sure to ask Jordan while we're holding hands and braiding each other's hair in Tempe next week...
But, but, you're both bald! I don't understand.
Don't forget your "Hack" t-shirt.