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Difference btwn nutritional fatigue and physical?

 Sorry if I should have posted this in the nutrition forum, thought there may be a thin line here.... There has been great discussions on the forums lately about nutrition plans for both everyday diets and training diets.  I am terrible with my nutrition plans, especially during rides and runs because I don't like to eat/drink when I workout but understand it is necessary. I'm a big Hammer fan, and do like their stuff and use it for long workouts.  Anyway, there's talk about the bonk, or fueling properly for training/racing, but when you practice your nutrition, how do you know if you are tired from being physically fatigued or from not ingesting enough?  Is there a process some of you have done to nail your nutrition?  There are days that I'm sure I am just tired because a workout it hard, but does that feel the same as if I'm under nourished?  Just looking for some pointers because nutrition is the 4th discipline and I would love to nail it this year.  Thanks!

Dan

Comments

  • I think you self admitted the problem and know the solution image

    Usually if I practice a consistent fueling approach (which has taken me a few years to nail down) then when I feel tired it's most likely fatigue as I've eliminated the other factor - nutrition. Prior to that and my power meter, I found when I felt tired my mental focus changed and usually that was apparent in my cycling cadence. When I noticed that I would take in a gel and if I didn't feel better relatively soon, then I knew it was fatigue or I completely botched my nutrition and put myself in a hole I couldn't dig myself out of.

    I think the important thing is consistent fueling plan. Fueling is such an individual preference, but I might add, once I switched to Infinit this became so much easier to figure out. My first couple of years I used Hammer and while I liked their products my body started to reject them as I got better at racing/training at higher intensities for 70.3 distances and up.

  • I find that it's hard to tell the difference between workout fatigue and nutrition fatigue until you get into the longer workouts of the HIM/IM builds. Once I am doing longer rides (and especially those followed by a run) I start to notice a few things that alert me that it's nutrition fatigue instead of workout fatigue. Nutritional fatigue = easily distracted or wandering mind, sluggish feeling (vs. a more tired muscles and slight pain feeling), transition from bike to run always feels good, but if I'm nutritionally fatigued that feeling wears off much quicker. Also, on longer rides I keep a "magic bullet," which is usually some kind of glucose (sometimes candy, sometimes Gu, whatever will get me quick sugar). If I take this and notice a change in my RPE or how I'm feeling, I can usually identify nutritional fatigue and then I can adjust my calories, etc., if not, then I know that it's from the workout. For me, my biggest indicator is the distracted or wandering mind. When I'm tired I can usually bring myself back into focus and keep going, when it's nutritional I have a much harder time doing that and it's a constant loop of distraction.
  •  Ken, I see what you are saying, get the fuel out for my workouts and start to tinker.  I also like what you said about cadence and the mental aspect, I too notice cadence being the first to go for me.  My problem is that I'm stubborn, I feel that if I workout for an hour to 1.5 hrs that why should I need it, and most times I don't.  Of course then there's those times when you have a terrible workout and I'm stuck asking myself why.  When I feel that I don't need it for those shorter durations, I can't stand the thought of  "what if" just to carry extra things that  I don't want to.  But, as you said, it has taken you years, so maybe I need to discipline myself and try some new things in the OS to see if there is a difference.  Oh, and when you say your body rejected Hammer once you were in shape, did you mean GI stress?  Just curious because I do see a lot of EN peeps using Infinit.  I don't mind Hammer, but I'm not blown away by anything either.  Its like I've taken their product to suggested use and have never felt anything that has turned me around, or given me that energy boost.  I feel like I'm fed and the calories are doing their job, but its almost a dull feeling... maybe that just happens when you ride 56 miles in a race???  Thank you.

    Dan

  •  Jennifer, thank you for the response.  Those are tell tale signs that I am looking for also because I have felt them and just thought that maybe its part of the package when you go out for a 2.5 hour ride with intervals involved then do a brick that those things occur no matter what!!!  And I like the magic bullet suggestion too and have thought about getting the Snickers bar that comes in a 2 pack that you just have to twist to open... so much tastier than gel and potions.  Thank you for the pointers.  

    Dan

  • I always get very light headed when I'm bonking. That's one of my tell-tale signs.

  • @Dan

    As Jennifer and I pointed out, usually it's the mental/concentration thing that gives clues.  Always being mindful and checking in with yourself.

    Yes, GI stress was the major culprit and I also started to sour on taste after my 2nd year.  Plus all those Endurolytes etc to keep track of - blah forget it.  Not to derail your original question but Infinit let me customize a fuel and electrolyte blend that I could tolerate.  It only took me 3 iterations to get a blend I felt confident with.  This made it easier for me to take in the nutrition.  I trained and raced primarily on Inifit for the bike.

    If my workout is less than 1.5 hours, I typically have enough in the tank to complete so I go out with water and carry a couple gels just in case.

    Maybe we need to start a thread.  What do you race/train nutrition wise to get some ideas if you want to try something new.

     

  • Dan ... You asked how to tell the difference between nutritional and physical fatigue.they have the same cause, just expressed in different organ systems. We have enough sugar stored in the form of glycogen in our muscles liver to help fuel our brains and muscles for about 2-3 hours at a 70% of FTP pace o the bike or EP on the run. Shorter time for harder efforts. After that, musclescan keep going on fat alone, but it feels different ... Physical fatigue. And the brain runs ONLY on sugar, so when the glycogen run out,that's mental fatigue as discussed above by others. The good news's you knowisthataslongasyou continue to take in sugar, you,ll stave off that bonk unless you throw in some increased effort to burn up all your glycogen. If an IM in is your future, it's best to practice how to not bonk by paying attention to nutrition During all workouts. Also, replacing the lost glycogen takes carbs and time, so if one is doing multiple workouts in a day, post workout fueling is key to topping up your glycogen stores for the next days work. In other words, if you do a hard 1.5 HR workout Fri PM, and don't replace all the glycogen, you could bonk after only an hour on Sat AM even with an easy pace.

    The "shorter" workouts where I make sure I stay well fueled are the bricks ... Drinking cals while riding on the trainer, then a Gu or Hammer gel during T2 and carrying sports drink with me on the run, even if it's only 30 min. That's more for being ready for theNEXT workout than to get thru the brick. Otherwise, I'll have depleted all my glycogen, and won't have enough time to replenish before the next days effort.
  • Something to try during your workouts to determine - if you are unsure during a workout, take in some fuel and see if you notice a difference.

    I'm also a fan of Infinit and S!Caps for electrolytes.

    Personally: I found that adding in some caffeine to my Infinit made a huge difference in my mental clarity during long runs. I'm not suggesting you use caffeine to override fatigue, but something to think about.

    Finally, I'd suggest keeping a log of your fueling, workouts, sleep and how you feel. That may help you track back to what works and doesn't work.

  • @ Dan - for me, the clue to nutrition bonk while running is irritability and loss of ability to cope with difficulty – ie I loose my mojo and can’t win the internal arguments.

    Things that get me annoyed are simple things like cars passing to fast, or too close, uneven pavement, potholes, road camber, to much headwind, no wind, my shirt bothers me, blah, blah, blah,….. These are all real examples of stuff that I know may be indications of lack of glucose to the brain for me. Light headedness tends to follow but not always. If I Gu right away, within about a mile or so it subsides if it is truly a brain bonk.

    Physical fatigue is different. I don’t loose my mojo. I remain focused and determined. But my biggest clue is my HR vs RPE. My HR drifts down but my RPE goes up. It’s like my body just stops listening and I cant make it go. Cadence drops, stride gets short, and shuffling is the beginning of the end…..

    Up til now my calories of choice have been Gu and sometimes Gatorade late in a long run. I am intrigued by the use of Infinit and look forward to giveing it a try.

    As always this represents my n=1 personal observation. YMMV
  •  Thank you everyone! Excellent responses and it seems I need to start taking this more seriously as I think it may have held me back some in the past.  I'll be sure to experiment as much as possible in the coming weeks.  Appreciate all the help!

  • For me it's the fatigue...if I am physically tired, I can push through it with good food in me...but when I was super paleo last year, my legs were shot by the 1 mile mark of any ride and I could do little more than turn the cranks!
  • I can't articulate the difference per se but I know it when it happens to me. Nutritional bonk is a very different animal and I know what the problem is right away when it happens.
  • I shouldn't have expected anything other than brilliance in a response from Al, but, he hit on something that i think I and probably many others suffer from...not fueling on the shorter workouts, because we don't feel we need it for THAT workout - and we are probably right. However, during and right after the workout is the best time to top of fuel storage sources, so, we should pay better attention to fueling even in even shorter workouts!

    Thanks Al!!!
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