Repeated Failure in 2.5s. Fine, right?
I can get through 2 of these, most days. But after about 1' into the third or fourth intervals, I'm failing. Not "I'm tired" failing, but "muscle failure". (I have normally picked up the rest as 1' intervals to the presribed cumulative total). FTP is accurate, and I'm at 120% - actually a couple of watts fewer - in executing. 85% stuff and bricked runs after the session are just fine.
It's just a personal bike power profile thing, right? Highlighting a personal weakness / room to grow/attic/ceiling/roof potential, right? I had always found 30/30s quite manageable, and vo2 run intervals - even in the neighborhood of 5' continuous work in Sept / Oct of this year - have been fine. But the continuous failure I'm experiencing with the 2.5 is remarkable.
Comments
I'd say it's pretty much the sign of a very, very weak mental six-pack!
I don't have any sort of scientific rationale for you, but my experience with the 2.5s has been really mixed. Yesterday I managed it but the last one left me on the verge of puking. Thursday I only managed 2 and had to do 1.5/1s for the 2nd 2. Same story last week. Got them done the first day of VO2, but couldn't repeat the 4x a couple of days later. Personally I just think that the 2.5s are much, much harder than the 30/30s. I used to think the 30/30s were pretty easy. There's no way I would say that about the 2.5s.
I'm in the same boat. If I was you I would test your 1min, 5min, and 20min power. Then compare them and see what your critical power line looks like. I believe RnP use a 5min to 20min ratio of about 1.22 to determine if you have run out of room in the attic. Under 1.22 and you are in need of some VO2 work, over and you would likely benefit more from FTP work.
I really struggle with the VO2 work as my power profile is pretty flat. However, I know that the VO2 block (with 2.5 - 5' intervals) typically gives me great results. FWIW 30/30s at 120% never did anything for me and always felt super easy, kind of like doing strides while running.
Dave,
As you know, this is the first year we've done the VO2 work starting with 2.5'. Every year leading up to this it's been 30/30's w/ the option of bulidng to 1, 1.5, 2, and if you were really crazy, 2.5'. Now, 2.5 is the starting point. If I were in your shoes (and I very well may be at week 10), I'd break it down into smaller intervals and see how you fare.
I'm curious as to the change to this year's plan, especially since this can be the time of the OS where some folks start to burn out if they're not careful.
You might want to post this to the micro thread to get a bona fide coach's repsponse.
Dave
When the VO2 block came around (listed as 30/30s) I went with 1'/1'
Pain is pain once you go beyond the 1/2 way point of the VO2 stuff that day.
I usually look at the total VO2 time 4x2.5' (2.5') Is 10' total at VO2. Depending on how I feel, I might do the first half as 2.5's then switch to 5x1'
I just try to get the total work time correct.
Good luck.
I think you can certainly have both a high V02max and FTP and that a low V02max can be a limiter to a higher FTP. By ramping up to the 2.5 minutes of V02max, you'll be surprised how quickly you'll build that fitness. Then you can unleash hell on the mountain bike as well as on the road!
I feel your pain! After 2 x 20's at FTP attempting and completing 4 X 2.5's @ 120% followed by 2 x 15's @ z-3, then a 35min brick run is a big ask. My hat is off to everyone that was able to complete the w/o as listed you are all much tougher than I and I am humbled in your company.
The physicality aside, this takes a huge amount of mental focus and as Dave Halligan eluded, this is where the OS starts to take its toll. I too, laid on my areobars after throwing up in my mouth 2 min into the third 2.5! After gathering myself and hearing Rich in my ear saying just get the work done, I was able to get the last 2.5 done. However the zone 3 work suffered a bit.
My point is that we need to stay focused on the work. IMHO, junk miles at this point are just that. If you are struggling and your form is bad your asking for an injury. Keep it real, it's January not 3 weeks out from a race!
Re-group and re-load, can't wait for next Saturday
Just sayin'
Mike
Either way, I seriously doubt it is due to the 6 pack!
Better to back off a bit now than be forced to later on. Ask me or Mike Graffeo...
Are you kidding...guy only did 2 IMs sub 10:30 IMs last year (<1 month apart as I recall)! He's got some serious work to do on that whole mental thing...just not nearly tough enough!<img alt="" src="http://members.endurancenation.us/DesktopModules/ActiveForums/themes/_default/emoticons/crying.gif" />
Hang in there Dave. I'd chalk it up to lingering impact of your week of illness and wait for your body to come around. If it helps, channel the whole team standing in your pain cave yelling "YOU CAN DO IT!" or "KEEP GOING YOU F$&^%@* P*(*^!" Whichever works better for you.
Thanks all. Looking back to this post, this isn't the first time I've been curious about vo2 max as a personal limiter. I think this most recent round just confirms it.
@ ;Mike - Definitely sustainable, and in the short term, my recovery from these sessions has been adequate. Aside from some DOMS, I'm able to hit next-day sessions.
However, I'm 99% confident that I'll run into a wall in 4 weeks. Knowing that I'm running into it as a calculated move (again, see link) makes it a bit easier on impact.
Other points:
-diet and nutrition, and warmup are spot-on. I have been trying to come into these as well-prepared to execute as possible.
Michele/Scott: yup. I'll probably adjust to 2' next time and keep adjusting until it hits. I did most of the work as 1'/1' last season and noted that was damn hard, so there we go.
-Matt, you're probably right. I've never monkeyed around with 1 or 5 min power, but I have a good idea of where they would fall relative to FTP. And thanks for providing the ratio: I tried a fast search to locate the protocol used for last year's Power tweak, but couldn't put my hands on it right away.
Now here's the supplemental: Would a second post-OS v02max bike block have merit? I recall that V02 run work is recommended not more than twice per year - and probably on a two-peak season - but I would be curious if there would be value to a repeat of this bike work as a week 20-24. Not sure of what I would have to shuffle around to accomplish it, but it's food for thought.
@Dave, have you maybe thought about consulting with coaches on a ladder down version from 5min down to 2.5, say 5min(5min), 4min(4min)........longer in the lower end of the VO2max power range. It may help penetrate that plateau and longer ints occur while you are still fresh. I found that changing the stimulus sometimes helps "confuse" the body, may help. I would certainly clear this with coaches before an attempt.
You would be aiming at no more than 12-15min total VO2max work. Skiba and few others use 30x30s as an intro workout into VO2max before serious work continues. For me, it never did much, I could crank those all day long at way over prescribed intensity and get away with it, meaning very little effect late in the VO2max focus segment. Always had to revert to 3-5min ints.
Just a thought and some experience from my self coaching days.
Somewhere there was a thread on adding a VO2 block to get good bang for your buck training in a short amount of time and actually added into my own season plan this year (coach-approved of course), I'm doing it pre-transition week to HIM plan. I can't seem to find where this recommendation was though, anyone else?
I received this gentle reminder from a friend/coach I know. I wanted to share it because last week I was going through this exact same thing and really getting frustrated and angry.
Vo2 Max zone is roughly 105% to 120%. I know RnP have 120% as the goal for these sets, and it is the goal. But just because you are falling short of 120% doesn't mean you are "failing the set". Far from it. As my friend pointed out, if you can legitimately hold 120% for these sets over a sustained period of time, you may be a freak. They are HARD sets. You want to be in the range - RnP use 110%-120% for Z5.
My FTP is 285 right now I and was really getting upset because I'd be falling into the 330's and sometimes the upper 320's. That is still 110% and well within the range of Vo2.
So don't look at the sets as a pass/fail, they are not. Unless you are not able to hold 105%, it might be time to call it a day.
Anyway, my $.02