EN for back of the packers

kjanracing

My wife, Jan, has been observing me and my training with EN-the Oct os to be specific.   We know there are a lot of really fast athletes in the haus.  Her question is how can/does EN help the 16-17 hour IM finisher? Actually she finished IMLOU in just under 16.  Are there any EN members whose IM times are in that range?  What has EN done for you?  Are 2.5 hour long runs appropiate for a 6ish hour marathon?  I'm asking because we are both doing IMAZ and she is wondering about doing EN training or doing a more "conventional"  long run/ride z2 type training plan.  She thinks she just wasn't born with any speed, doesn't like speed work, and didn't seem to respond well to the speed work she has done.  IOW it didn't seem to make a difference in her marathon times.  She loves going out and knocking out a 20 mile run though.  Any thoughts or advice out there?

Thanks!

Al Truscott

I'm convinced ... Because I've seen examples ... That the EN program can help IM athletes from 9.5 to 17 hours. Even if she doesn't like speed work, that just means her tests will be slower than her true potential, and her training zones will reflect that, but she can still benefit from following The EN plans. Her time spent training will get her to a sixteen hour finish just fine, e.g., no need for more than 2.5 HR long runs. The reason for the "shorter" long run is to prevent injury and ensure the ability to maintain the program without needing too many recovery days afer a long run. Finally, EN plans are just less boring than standard issue long course training. And who knows, she might just start to like working a little harder, if it creeps up on her in small doses.

ghernand

of course, great advice from Al.

to further support his point:

i know many people with a similar mindset as your wife, when it comes to athletic training.  all have eventually come around to appreciating the improvements that are seen from training with 'speed work' AND endurance work.  the 2 paths to training with speed and endurance that i have witnessed in this cohort are:

-to give them the freedom to set their paces to where they feel comfortable (as Al pointed out will be inaccurate, but still works) and then just follow a proper plan of speed and endurance training;

-to train with one faster person, who doesn't mind going slower when needed and who isn't at all gung ho;

this is only for the initial period that it takes for them to see improvement.  once they see the results, then they motivate themselves because they see it works.

I have seen this progression on many occasions.

so, an EN plan can work for her, for sure!   

Also, from a pure physiological standpoint, the human body responds best to a proper mix of fast and slow, as is built into the EN plans.  this keeps injuries at bay, which keeps an IM athlete racing and happy. 

wishing you both Pr's at your races.

GH

 

Barbara Spitler

Kurt, when I read your post, you were talking about me. I'm in that catagory. I joined EN a year ago, and I can say hands down, that training with EN has made me stronger, faster, and mentally tougher. I have yet to do a full IM, but I will tell you that your wife can't go wrong, training with EN!! I followed the plans very closely, and there is no doubt that the shorter runs will get her to her goals. I'd like to point out, that EN does not advertise that it is for 'fast people only'. EN is comprised of all types of people...size, shape, age, experience...male..female. Everyone comes to EN with their own backgrounds. Some are extremely experienced, others not so. Some are data geeks, others are not. EN is for everyone! Tell her to come aboard! She'll have plenty of support, from everyone! I have learned a lot from the fast peeps, and gotten soooo much support from everyone, met and made great friends from this group. I guarantee she will not regret it! Also, there is the Women's Forum, where she will get additional support for a myriad of subjects!
Tell her I said to 'come on in, the water's fine!' Good luck to both of you in your training and racing!!

Nemo Brauch

Pre-EN I did IMFL at 15:37. Two years later, with one full year of EN training under my belt, I did IMWI at 13:43. The training plan got me the right fitness, but I strongly believe the lessons I learned from the team that year and the race day plan and execution is what made the biggest difference in my race day time.

Your wife, like me, might just be better than a sub 16 hour Ironman athlete guven the right guidance. :-)

I was the poster child for being highly scheptical that 2.5 hours or running would get me fit enough for race day. After that experience, I remain probably the biggest cheer leader for the cause. I'll never run over 2.5 hours while training for a Ironman ever again.

jburbatt

Posted By Nemo Brauch on 10 Jan 2011 08:58 AM

Pre-EN I did IMFL at 15:37. Two years later, with one full year of EN training under my belt, I did IMWI at 13:43. The training plan got me the right fitness, but I strongly believe the lessons I learned from the team that year and the race day plan and execution is what made the biggest difference in my race day time.



Your wife, like me, might just be better than a sub 16 hour Ironman athlete guven the right guidance. :-)



I was the poster child for being highly scheptical that 2.5 hours or running would get me fit enough for race day. After that experience, I remain probably the biggest cheer leader for the cause. I'll never run over 2.5 hours while training for a Ironman ever again.

 

Agreed w/the 2.5 hour run thing.  Especially since you aren't just out running at one pace for these runs, but typically start off between hard and harder, then settle in, I think it does a good job of matching the mental state of a IM marathon.

 

I think there's also a lot to be gained aside from the speed thing with the EN plan, especially with race execution. 

Rich_B

Kurt, there are a few of us BOPers here - we tend to keep a low profile.  Before i joined EN, I've "self coached" myself to IMKY in 16:20 and IMAZ in 16:05.  Both had run splits over 6 hours.  For me training slow seems to result in perfoming slow.  All that LSD running I did in training netted me a 6+ hour slog/walk so I was looking for a new approach to things.  I don't think I'll ever be fast but I should be quicker than 16:xx so i figured something was not working in my approach.  I came across EN, read a bunch in the trial period - liked what I heard and joined up in Decemeber.  I will drink the cool aid and work it the EN way for the next 6 months and see what happens in May at IMTX.  I have faith in the experience of RnP and the combined wisdom of the EN nation.  The team also has plenty of examples of BOPers who have been succesful using the EN approach.  

Docmartin

As a BOP'er, I feel EN is really helpful for the guidance. While a wicked fast triathlete can blow their bike, they end up having tons of time to walk the run and still finish with a so-so time (for them). The slower folk have less leeway, and the Four Keys will help them not only finish, but it sets them up to have a great race.

The training is great for everyone, because your planned effort during the day's activity is based on YOUR fitness. It has taken me awhile to embrace the dark side of interval training, but I have set 5K PR's while doing half the running I did before I started with triathlons. For me the bike intervals have been harder, but I am more able to do them now compared to a year ago. As someone who took to endurance sports later in life, I didn't have the swimming, biking, or running background others did, but I am still as welcomed as a Kona qualifier. Hope this helps.

ejbeach01

I think the only time I would not recommend EN to someone is if they are brand spanking new. And even then I'd recommend RnP and the Haus, just not the running speed work. I personally think a more conservative plan is more appropriate for total newbies. It takes a little time and consistency to build up the muscle strength...but also the tendons and ligaments. I'd like to see them start with a very easy running frequency type plan where they build from nothing to say 20-30 miles per week consistently.



I'm just conservative in that regard and don't necessarily think intervals are the best place for a total newbie to start. So give them a year to get in some miles and basic consistency and then do some work. That doesn't mean they shouldnt' come to EN...I think this is a great place to learn things correctly. I would just be a little fearful of hitting it too hard too fast with the running.



I was very injury prone doing speed type work early on, so I think I'll always carry that with me to a certain degree. Part of that is my own fault I'm sure. I wasn't recovering properly. But I think the point stands and RnP will agree to a point. Being BOP or FOP isn't as relevent as your basic fitness. Its one thing to talk about raising the roof of your house...but you have to actually have a house first. :-)



Having said that...I have never seen the beginner plan. Perhaps it is so much easier than the advanced plan that I am way off base.

kjanracing

Thanks for all the great input! I'll pass it along. She is running a marathon in New Orleans Feb 13 and I am running a half as the end to my Oct OS. I'll continue with the plans and we'll see if she will join in. thanks!

dhalligan

Kurt,

Much like EN training is fast before far, it's also smart before fast.  Having been around since the beginning of EN, my observation has always been that we're just a bunch of regular folk who like to train and race and ultimately want to do so where we continually learn and improve while having fun doing it.

Slow, fast, FOP, MOP, BOP, doesn't matter.  You ask will EN training help her, even though she's a 16hr IM finisher, my answer would be ABSO-POSITIVELY!  There's much for her to learn from the collective wisdom and experience of EN.

I hope your wife gives it a shot.

Dave

cfpete

And I will add my two cents worth as a BOPer' - just finished IMAZ (my first) in 14:25 after a (literally) gut wrenching run-walk that included 9 miles of slogging, with frequent chicken broth and coke to offset gastric distress. I have only been in the triathlon mode for 3 yrs - and have now competed three 70.3 events and one IM. EN is different from the usual approach in that it promotes faster as the training norm. So my 5K run times have come down a lot - as the result of the Out Season training. And my wildly slow bike times have gotten better - as my swim has. I should say that I had 30 yrs of running before I started this stuff and I am 55 yrs young. EN is very encouraging and the info is great. The training plans work. I have a friend who is training for IM Louisville. He said he was spending a lot of time "processing" information from different coaches and approaches. With EN's plans and support you get through the event faster, and with less distress. R&P have done the "processing" for us. By the way - as a guy who has run 20+ marathons I would say that 2.5 hr training runs are always better than 6 hr runs! The only negative I might suggest for the BOPer is the lack of "local" tri support. I sometimes find myself wishing for a little more "training partners" time. My friends who tri and are members of the local tri groups seem more locally connected. That said I got through IMAZ smiling! She will too.

Norton

Another detail for the BOP: the race day execution is all the more valuable for the fitness-limited. Sure, it's tough to go that slow at the beginning of the day, but just wait....the reward of passing all those early optimists is solid gold.

[Deleted User]

Kurt:

I've done the long run/ride z2 training versus the EN type of training.  As a BOPer, I can say that the EN traning works and it's better for you than doing long rides and long runs with no purpose other than spending lots of time out there.  Personally, I like the 2.5 hour run as I always seemed to get hurt when I ran much longer.  I've become stronger through the interval training and while like Jan, I don't like speed work, or seem to have been born with any speed in me, I think it's helped a little.

Joanna

Linda Patch

Hi Kurt!

For Eric's overall info, as he is a newbie here too--the beginner plan and the advenced plan eventually intersect. The build is longer to get therefor the beg folks, but the intensity and demands get up there into the same basic realm.  "Beginner" in EN, doesn't really mean "beginner," as in taking someone from 0 to IM. It's a bit of a misnomer that weve talked about through the years. It really refers tot he pace at which the plans build--EN is EN no matter what plan you pick.

Kurt--I think your wife would be perfect for EN. I did my first IM with a coach who won IMC. I went 15 hours. Then I trained for my second one with EN, and went 13 and change. If I didn't have huge quad issues, there was a sub-13 in my body--no doubt about it--I felt that good every step of the damn way that day! It was awesome.

There are plenty of people who either are here, or who have been here, who finish in your wife's time range, if that's her main concern. If this team becomes all about just "fast" people, or people who think they're "fast" and, therefore, "think" belong here more than others, you'll see a mass exodus That's not what EN is about.  What Halligan said--we're a bunch of normal people just gittin' it done, trying to follow the most efficient, powerful, effective, and time-sensitive training we can to our own personal best result. That's all capped with friendship, support, and fun. Doesn't matter if you go 9 hours or 15. That's the core of EN, and I know RnP want it to be a big tent. It truly is, and there's room for everyone.

 

 

Chris G

As has been expressed by many others here.  The systems work cause they work.  It makes no difference where you are in the pack.  We regularly hear stuff like this "I am not fast and can't handle any speed work....".  Well the nice thing is that when you base everything off of VDot, slower people run at slower paces.  Everyone will benefit from pushing a little harder in training, the back of the pack folks will benefit from it more than the faster ones.  Lets face it, if you are running sub 20 5k's chances are you are/were pushing it when training anyhow.  Further, good execution as just as important for the back of the pack as the front of it, maybe more.

One of the greatest things about EN has always been that you can have 14 plus hour IM finisher giving advice to a sub 10 person cause the 14 hour peep just plain knows more about proper training and execution and the advice is dead on.  Being able to ride or run fast does not give you any expertise, paying attention to the truly smart folks does.