Using a Power Meter in the Group Rides

morpheus

 I know this is a little off topic.  But, I'm thinking of hooking up with the group rides around March, for extra riding.  Tempo/v02/Hi VI stuff, right.   In the past, I rode blindly at the front, tending to push it too hard and too long.  Luckily, the paceline would be long enough that I would recover by the time I got back to the front. 

So, what is the most efficient way to use the PM when taking a pull?  I guess I'm wondering what kind of wattage increase happens when you take your turn at the front, keeping the paceline rolling as smooth as possible.  I'm sure that after a few rides, I'll have a better feel for this but I was just sitting around wondering what to expect and how it could help with the roadies.

What';s your experience?

 

 

Steven Ford

My experience is that you want to hold it steady at what your were right at 1 to 2 riders from front. So you don't accelerate or slow down to much. You might also want to look at speed to, which normally we dont care but will give you a good idea. I am looking forward to the group rides soon as well.

 

 

Kitboo

I try not to stare the PM too much when riding in a group as one moment of inattention can lead to a big pile-up with you being the dog that caused it.
Depending on the group, if they are slightly stronger than me then I'll pull at 100-110% FTP for no longer than 10 minutes. If they are alot stronger than me (which is 99% of the time), I do whatever the hell I can to hang on to their wheels before I blow up and sort out all the wattage numbers when I've revived myself and looking at the power file on WKO+.
Seriously, if I feel myself hanging on for dear life and ready to implode, I'll tuck into the group and do my best to "rest" at IF=0.8. I think there's no better bike workout than slaying yourself trying to outclimb/outsprint/hang on for dear life with people who are faster than you. Unlike running, you can really work HARD on the bike and not have a high risk for injury and burn-out.

Nemo Brauch

Yeah- I'm with Kitboo on this. The group I ride with knows I can't pull at the same speed they ride without blowing up. So either I don't pull (and they are cool with that) or I pull for VERY short periods. On days I feel frisky I'll let them know I'm gonna try to do more pulling and that if I pop off the back, they are to let me go (I won't slow down the group because I decided to blow myself up).

That said, he trick with riding in a paceline is to keep the same speed nice and consistent. Whatever that does to your power is whatever it does. So when I ride with a group the only thing I stare at is the speed. When I get up front to pull my job is to keep that speed, period. That means putting out a little more effort- but usually not as much as you anticipate it will be (at least not right away).

That's the trade-off with riding with a group. Unless you are the lead dog in that group and control the pace, the workout is going to be whatever it is giung to be. To get around that you can do your own FTP intervals beforeyou join the group (I've done that when I know I'm joining a group that rides a little slower than me)- that works out kinda nice 'cause I can get in the intervals and then I join the group and take 1st or 2nd wheel as "rest at .85" which works great for everyone. That plan also works nice when I ride with my hubby :-)

Coach Rich

It depends on how strong you are relative the group, your position in the pack (talking Alpha dog kinda thing) and the general culture of the group.

If big group ride and you are anonymous doode, don't care about making friends:

Go to the front and pull as often, little, hard, not as you like. Just be sure to clearly indicate you're "done" working by flicking an elbow and moving off the front. Don't wait for someone to decide you looked work and to give you a wheel. On rides like this they will be happy to watch you sit in the wind and hang yourself.

If you are the Alpha-ish and are riding with a group of similar riders, though maybe not quite as strong:

1. When it's your turn to take a pull, glance quickly at the SPEED, not power.
2. Ride about 20-30" at that SPEED, enough time for the guy who just took a pull to get back in the paceline. VERY poor form to drop the hammer after a guy has finished taking a pull for you but is still in the wind.
3. Then, gradually dial it up to whatever watts you want to hold for however long you want to hold it. The key here is you're with a group of similarly strong riders, you're not going to drop them by dialing it up, and they are smart enough to work together to stay on your wheel. The message is "this an A-ride, you're here to do A-ride work, so while I'm not going to try to pop you off the back, I'm also not going to babysit you. It's a A-ride. If you pop...oh well."

Mixed group of riders:

Same as above but really watch the SPEED, not the watts. Get your work in by taking longer pulls, riding out to the side in the wind, etc, without disturbing the rythm of the group. I'll also do more work by giving weaker riders a wheel and pull/pushing them back up, etc. Also, I'm pretty good as estimating the FTP's of people I ride with, even though they may not have power. So if I figure that Billy's FTP is 230, he's sitting 3rd wheel (saving 20-30%, depending on how confortable he is drafting), then I know I can ride at about 270-280w and keep in him. But if I dial it up to 300w, I know he's going to get gapped and we'll have problems. So I'll pull at 280w, move off, slide down the side, check out his gap, look at his face, to see how he did with that pull. Then I'll get in FRONT of him, so he will be SECOND wheel when I take a pull. I'll then tell the othe stronger guys to let Billy always have 2nd or 3rd wheel (the bestest place to have him as it's usually the smoothest place to ride) and we'll rotate through/around Billy. This is what we'll do if it's a long ride (down the coast for example) and we need to keep people on the whole way.

morpheus

All great points. Having ridden most group rides without any numbers, my fear of being the dude who slowed the pace down drives me to pull as if I had a gun to my head. I always went on effort, thought that reading speed was too variable with the terrain and wind, and usually ended up increasing the pace by too much. I was thinking that there would be about a 30-40% increase in watts when u move from #2 to the lead, since there's about a 30-40% energy savings by sitting in the draft. It will be fun to see WKO+ break it down.

ghernand

@Chris: another cool thing about having a power meter on group rides is that you can determine after a couple of weeks, if it's a waste of time or not.  track the numbers after each ride and assess whether or not your extra time would be better suited running or recovering.

Another trick i like to use for getting the most out of running and riding in groups, is to sit down afterwards and track watts or pace during the hardest efforts in the group.  if it's a good group, i can usually generate the higher numbers than when alone.  then i make sure to try to reproduce the watts or pace when i train alone.

GH 

Scott Alexander

During the longer daylight hours, I ride group roadie rides on my tri bike, every T/Th. Yes, I'm THAT dude, the ONLY one on a tribike. And, while it took a whilte for the respect to be earned, and I still get razzed all the time, I can hold my own.

If you're ever pushed, or rotated thru, to the front, just hold the speed, at minimum. Do not go to the front then start hammering and surging the speed way up. Inch it up incrementally, if at all.

For our group rides, usually 32-36 miles, the first 25ish are pure group. The last section however, is the hammerfest, and it's every man, woman and/or child for themselves! Usually, the roadies try to hammer and drop me while in the group. They seldom have that much luck. But when we hit that last stretch, they let me go to the front, and let me hammer at whatever power/pace my little heart desires. And then they just suck my wheel, mile after mile.

I seldom pay attention to power until that last stretch, at which point, I'm still just mainly trying to ride steady output, for long distances. The roadies will know when you're starting to slow, and have no problem passing you and trying to dust you.

Coach Rich

Gilberto witnessed the problem that I, and now you as an EN athlete, have with roadie rides: too much admin before the work starts. I put a call out to my local email list for a ride that would tag onto a loosely organized group of roadies that ride the mountains to the west of me every week. They are all masters guys, very cool, I've only ridden with them a couple times and I was very careful to observe the vibe of the ride. But they did a LOT of admin, noodling stuff on the front end. I was going nuts thinking of all the time I was wasting out there. I finally went to the front and gradually dialed it up a bit. Gilberto joined me at a light and said the peleton was protesting the pace .

Anyway, shortly after that we split off from them and did our thing, which included me getting my ass handed to me in the San Gabriel mountains by a 108lb female pro cyclist so I still got in a good bit of work.

I want to expand my network of strong guys to train with but this solid 45' of admin time on the front end drove me nuts. We'll see.

Norton

Chris,

Coach R nails all the good points.

I've got one more: on longer rides(2+hours) most riders go out too hard; pacing is key. The PM is invaluable here, helping to keep things under a semblance of control so you can be strong at the end when everyone else is withering.

morpheus

the take home message that I picked up....
I'll be joining the local group rides much like in the past, as a supplement to my training. When I've gotten the 'work' done per EN and I' feel fresh, +TSB (?), and need some trash talkin' quad killin' lung rippin' fun. Wait, that sounds like the OutSeason. Anyhow.

I'm sure I won't change how I approach these rides. As you guys mentioned, you do whatever you gotta do to to hang on a wheel or to keep the pace up. But, I'm hoping that the info will help me improve my own engine, help me smooth things out at the front of the line, and pace appropriately to finish strong and maybe win a few sign sprints.

Ultimately, in this ballpark, I"m looking to improve my tri times, so that will be taking priority. There will be plenty of group rides coming, I'll just keep them in the right perspective, considering what I'm trying to accomplish.

Thanks for the great feedback , all!

Coach Rich

You may find yourself gathering a go-to group of 4-8 other guys that you ride with. In my experience, rides bigger than that start to become promised by the weakest rider, inexperienced, the guy who thinks 8am = show up at 8a and unrack bike, etc.

morpheus

@Rich- I'm lucky that I have both options on the table.

2 group rides to choose from, one is full of club riders/pro-wannabees and the other is a very organized (periodization-wise) group with a bunch of accomplished triathletes in it. The second group is structured to accommodate the juniors (middle and high school) as they have a nationally recognized junior development team, usually racking up at national events. I tend to gravitate to the development team cuz of a 'low-admin' factor (most gabbing is done before, not during) and lots of people with similar goals, thus, when they go hard...they GO HARD. My problem with this group will be their base phase during the first 4 months of their year. I'll use this group as my extra time on the bike. I never had numbers on this stuff other than final ride distance and speed as posted on their website. THe PM will provide interesting insight to this.

Also, I have that smaller group of 4-6 that rides consistently, when it warms up. This group might work well with EN's stuff. I'll be doing some EN intervals with these guys. Shorter intervals will be fine for the group to stay together, longer intervals may require some soft pedaling back to them. Luckily, all of these guys are cool and know that I'm on a TopSecret Ninja Assassin BreakThrough Endurance Nation Plan and they don't have any problem with my work, and I won't come across as a showoff, just a dude who's trying to get better.