Recommendation for front aero wheel?
Could someone recommend a front aero wheel? I'm looking to buy one this season, and I'm a bit overwhelmed by the choices. How deep a rim (404 vs 808)? Regular spoke vs Hed3 trispoke? Aluminum braking surface vs all-carbon? Lower-cost (e.g. Flashpoint) vs the latest Zipp Firecrest? Hed, Zipp, Reynolds, Mavic, Flashpoint/SRAM, Edge Composites, Mad Fiber?
I ride a Cervelo P2 with a PT-equipped Mavic Open Pro clincher rear wheel (w/wheelcover for races), so should I get a clincher front as well? I weigh 145lbs and I'm trying to get to 255W / 4.0W/kg, if not this season then next. Assume I'll be racing IMLP or a couple of HIM's (e.g. Quassy and Timberman) each season, along with local sprints/oly's, and a biweekly cycling club time trial. Because of the frequent racing I'd like to be able to switch easily between the aero front wheel and my Mavic Open Pro training wheel (or keep the aero wheel in place all season, if it's cheap and bulletproof).
There are some pretty big price differences between the different options. I'll consider the more expensive ones, since I want to buy something I won't outgrow, but I'd like to know what benefits I'm getting for all that extra cash.
As we like to say around here, "Please help me spend my money!"
Comments
I think the 808( HED 9, etc) is a good balance between weight/aero performance and it is relatively stable in crosswinds.
Just read a study on aero performance of Hed3, 1080, 808, Mavic shallow rim, regular disc and Sub9...Sub9 and 1080 best results for straight line speed in INDEPENDENT test.
Last year, i found a deal on a SRAM S80 at cost. Rode it at Placid and was really glad to have it. You wont have any problems with a deep wheel.
Personally, I have a 404/808 (w/ wheel cover) clincher combo, and a set of carbon tubular Xentis 4-spokes.
$513 w/free shipping for a new S80 front from Niagara Cycle Works; good price?
Do I need to worry about the weight of the S80 compared to less-deep (60mm depth) or pricier (e.g. 808) alternatives, on relatively hilly courses like Quassy?
FWIW. . .I'll add my experience too because your 'outgrow' comment struck me. . .I had a SRAM S60 and S80 on my last tri bike (2007 Felt B2) and I loved those wheels. But when I bought my new tri bike (Cervelo P2) late last year I had some extra $$$ and I decided since all the cool kids ride Zipp that I would spend the extra cash and buy Zipps for the front and back (404 front, 404 PT w/aero cover back). Honestly I can't tell any difference between the two brands. But to be honest, I love my Easton wheels better than any other set I have ever owned! I have the new Easton EC90SL on my road bike and they are smoother, just as stiff and roll faster than the Zipps even without the aero advantage.
Same here. Great combo.
Good point on the added weight of the deeper rim. The difference in weight between a Zipp 404 and 808 clincher front wheel is 130gm. That's about 0.28 lbs extra to carry up the hill. But this pales in comparsion to the weight loss that you want to achieve as you goal. Not to mention that the depper rim sizes provides better aerodynamics and the added weight of the wheel helps to maintain speed on a flat course. I would choose the deeper rim.
I got my S80 wheelset for $1,029 last August, so I think $513 is a little steep for just the front, but not out of the ballpark. My understanding of the difference between the S80 and 808 is (a) dimples and (b) weight. I believe other elemens of the aerodynamic design are identical because the S80 leverages the same patent, which SRAM got access to after acquiring Zipp. I did the weight-weenie side-by-side comparison last year when I evaluated both but can't remember the exact difference. It wasn't much, or I would have gone with the 808's at twice the price.
Cheers, Matt
Something to consider with the depth of the wheel is the stall angle of the wheel. Deeper isn't always necessarily better. To do this you will need to estimate the speed you will ride and the possible wind speed and direction for the courses you plan to ride. Deeper wheels will stall at higher apparent wind angles and add significantly more drag than shallower wheels.
The new 808 and 404 firecrest wheels as well as the HED stinger 9 (tubular) will stall between 15 and 17.5 degrees and hit their sweet spot between about 5 and 15 degrees.
The HED jet 9 (clincher) will stall between 10 and 12.5 degrees and hits a sweet spot between 5 and 12.5 degrees.
The HED H3 will not stall at high wind angles and will actually get more aero as the angle increases and becomes a faster wheel than the deeper rimmed ones; however, it is not quite as aero as the above wheels when they are in their sweet spot.
A rider going 27mph (possible sprint distance pace) with a 7mph cross wind will see an apparent wind angle of about 14.5 degrees.
A rider going 19mph (possible ironman distance pace) with a 7mph cross wind will see an apparent wind angle of over 20 degrees.
Obviously most courses will have turns so you won't see the same angle throughout, but you can look at the probability of what wind angles you will see during a race.
What it all comes down to is that if you ride about 25+mph or are on a course with very little wind you will be more likely to see apparent wind angles in the 5 to 15 degree range and the wider rim depths will be faster for you.
If you are slower or ride courses where there is higher wind speed you are more likely to see higher wind angles and should choose a shallower rim or aero spoked H3.
Comfort may also play a role as spoked wheels are generally considered more comfortable for long distances than the aero spoked H3. This may or may not be an issue for you.
As far as handling, the shallower rims should not be too twitchy unless your bike handling skills are pretty bad. The new firecrest and HED jet 9 designs are supposed to make them pretty manageable in windy conditions. It seems as if the H3 is close to, if not more susceptible to winds. Most people seem to think that a disk(cover) on the back wheel will actually make handling easier. I think If you train enough on a wheel set you should be able to handle pretty much anything short of a tropical storm.
I just went through this dilemma and have tried to research a bunch of options. I ended up going with a HED H3 front due to its lower price and my estimated bike speed. I will also use my PT training wheel with a cover on the back.
First, if you are running a clincher in the back, run one up front. There is no reason to have to carry both a spare tubie and tubes for a clincher.
The biggest gain you will see is going from a standard box rim to ANY deep aero wheel, after that dimishing returns kick in very quickly.
I raced on FP 60s for two years and had great results. FP is not longer around because the SRAM wheels are the same thing now. The SRAM S40,60,80 are just Zipp rims from a few years ago with no dimples, heavier carbon, and not quite as good hubs and spokes. The aerodymnamics are almost as goo as the Zipp clinchers for a much more reasonable price. HED Jet wheels are also a great wheel for the price.
If you are buying new, the SRAM or HED wheels are the best buy in my opinion (of the major wheel companies out there).
If you know that you want the best then Zipp's are the way to go, just be aware that you are spending a fair bit more for only marginal improvement. I raced on 404 and 808 clinchers last year and they are awesome, but the new firecreast are even better.
The other way to get a deal is to start watching slowtwitch, ebay, and here for people to sell Zipp clinchers as they upgrade to the carbon clinchers. I may be in this situation and selling a 404 and 808 soon myself. I willing to bet there will be other ENers and many slowtwitchers that do the same.
As far as depth goes... generally deeper is better unless it is windy and you get to extreme yaw angles. 4 w/kg will get you moving pretty good and you can benefit from a deep front. I race at 135 pounds and have used a 808 front in every race but Kona. I actually could have rode an 808 at Kona but it was nice to have the peice of mind for a 404 front.
ALSO, no matter what you decide, take the time to research and find fast race tires and get latex tubes, as that will make as much difference as going from a SRAM wheel to a zipp wheel and cost a fraction of the difference.
Since the H3 wheels are a molded solid piece they will never be perfectly round (I doubt that any wheel out there is absolutely round) and can't be trued, but they shouldn't really change roundness over their life either. HED considers anything 0.03 or lower to be an "A" grade wheel.
I do not have any experience with the Hed 3's, but you do sure see a lot of very old ones out there. I assume that's a good sign. But if you are worried about the weight of an 808 vs 404, do make sure to take that into account with the Hed 3. The classic argument for them, of course, is that weight is not so important as aero, and (as David points out) they are very, very aero for some very "real" riding conditions for most of us.
Seems to me that Mike is right - the differences between the wheels you are talking about are measurable, but much smaller than the improvement comparing any of them to the training wheel.
I have a nicely EN Sticka Pimped out Hed3 that I'd be willing to rent out to EN members. I've always raced a Hed3. Aero, bombproof, and aero.
Good work, Kevin. The badass 'whoosh-whoosh-whoosh' helicopter noise that a trispoke makes is probably tied with the laughter of children as The Best Sound in The World.
Also want to bring Kevin's strategy of "FTP Goal Purchase Rewards" to the floor as an EN Best Practice. Great trick, and fantastic way to squeeze extra motivation for a few more watts.
The 19mm Bontrager Aero TT tire is regarded as the best tire to mate with the front H3 since the H3's are narrow rimmed wheels. Run whatever with the rear as that doesn't matter as much since it's not really exposed to the headwind.
Tubes are a preference kind of thing. You do not need a valve extender with a H3, in fact you can't really use one. The cutout for the valve is not all that big. Look at the attached picture of my H3 that I sold last year and you'll see the cutout.
You'll basically just want to use a typical 36mm valved tube so that you can get your pump head in there.
If you get a line on some, PM me!
@Dave, yeah, I'm watching the aero geeks bid up a bontrager RXL Aero TT 19 tire on eBay right now - already up to $61 with more than 4 days to go. I don't understand why bonti discontinued a tire that was "the" tire for H3 fronts. The conti supersonic 20mm does look like a good alternative, at least per the bketechreview.com tire tests.
The only reason I have anything to offer on the topic: the optimum H3 tire is an active discussion on ST at the moment (which probably accounts for the current bidding action on EBay). Apparently, there were problems with this tire delaminating.