Coach Gordo's thoughts on IM Performance
I couldn't help but notice the "raise the roof" comment regarding FTP work...
http://coachgordo.posterous.com/40272312
I have followed Gordo's blog for a while and appreciate what he gives back to the sport...
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You can easily bump that over 20+, olympic distance athletes train over 15, you can imagine Gordo's ironman athletes, closer to 30. You bet, no life. Those are the peeps that don't have to work for living and suits them. Gordo is an excellent athlete and a coach, no doubt. Have both editions of his book. Many great things to read, but I don't have that kind of time.
This was a good read to. Thanks for posting it. I will be able to comment more at the end of this season when I finish a full one in the house, so that I can compare.
Wouldn't it be fun to pair up two athletes in November, with similar stats. Have one follow an EN approach, the other a traditional Friel approach. Then they'd do the same IM. Enough pairs and we'd begin to have some real answers. Plus it would be fun to have a "nemesis!" Of course, to be fair, the comparison would have to include # of lost jobs, promotions, divorces, etc. Rich has said elsewhere that volume does work - there's more than one way to skin a cat, it just doesn't work for those of us with jobs, families, lives...
I think the fundamental intent of the article is partially obscured by some of the personal anecdotes. Ultimately, you need to figure out what's going to work for you. For Gordo, it appears as though "raising the roof" isn't the answer. Maybe he's the rule - maybe he's the exception. I certainly don't know.
The one thing I do know is that I've logged 3 seasons using the Jan-Feb-Mar = 14-18 hrs/wk of Z2-Z3. Each year I added more and more volume, and got faster accordingly. However, I never got appreciably faster. I would roll my bike off the trainer in April, and invariably I felt as though I was starting from zero. I was completely unprepared for the high-intensity efforts of a mixed-terrain, mixed-effort ride. This would typically hamper my progress until I was conditioned to being back out on the road.
It remains to be seen if "raising the roof" will ultimately benefit my personal style of racing. Realistically, I don't see how it can hurt. I'm doing a decent volume of work (for this time of year), and the intensity is north of what I'd typically be doing well into the spring.
I emailed the link to Patrick and he called me to chat about it while he was taking the girlz to EN-unapproved swim lessons and I was outside cleaning the garage. Notes:
Finally...show me the data. Gordo doesn't talk about what his training weeks look like now to achieve those numbers. How many hours he and his guys are putting up all year round. Our data set are the hundreds of you and your peers who've:
Finally...again...the tri world is full of people who've tried it the traditional way and have just not seen the results to justify the time spent. That's a big data set that no one really talks about: the people who keep doing what they do cuz that's just how we do it, and they gets what they get, year after year.
And another thing...
...we'd appreciate it if our thoughts on the topic of what/how other coaches work and things they do stayed inside EN. For example, there's how Rich talks inside the Haus, to you, and outside. Inside I'll tell you I don't really care. I don't network with other coaches, biz or coaching-wise, because PnI have the best laboratory here in EN that we could ever ask for. We are 100% focused internally -- on what you need, how to make you faster, how to do the sum of EN better and better all the time. In the process I could care less what other coaches do, don't do, think about how we work, think about me personally, etc.
Gordo may or may not be doing things the same way he did back in about '05-'06, probably the last time I had direct contact with him. I don't read his stuff, or anything from any other coaches for that matter. I can't be bothered with what any other coaches are doing because I'm too busy and having too much fun actually COACHING and buildng a team of Ironman athletes.
I may be a little unique in that I generally do have the time to commit to a higher volume/lower intensity offseason plan....but I've done it, it ain't much fun, the weather generally sux this time of year and I didn't get much faster...no thanks, I'm in for the get it done and go about other stuff. Added benefit, as an older guy...I haven't had an injury that stopped training since I drank the KoolAid several years ago. I'm thoroughly convinced that training at higher intensities forces us to have better form, less chance of injury. Of course, if we tried to do 15 hrs at this intensity, we'd pop...but we don't.
Best of all, we all get the benefit of a great team, great coaches and awesome support.
My 2c.
There is another point here which hasn't exactly been made but it goes to exactly what RnP are essentially saying. There was a big thread on ST about this a couple weeks back too.
Many coaches, perhaps gordo is one of them, have this notion in their head with regards to breaking up the season. Without getting into too many phases for the discussion it essentially breaks down into the base building phases, and the race prep phases. And in almost all the books and training plans you see...they all have the intervals starting in the race prep phases. So 12weeks from your IM race you start with intervals. You also happen to be doing fairly heavy volumes at the same time.
So tell me...what good is doing a couple moderate intervals going to do? Not much. It sure doesn't build a lot of extra speed....been there done that.
The other problem is that all these coaches have their base building phase in the winter after your OS. So you sit on the trainer and TM for hours on end. FUN!!! But tell me...What was I doing during those 15-25 hour weeks if not building a base??? The flaw in their systems/plans is that they treat the training cycles in their programs as if they are individual events rather than a training cycle. All the work you put in the previous year is erased and you start rebuilding your base from scratch in the Winter. How the hell does that make any sense at all??? If you've trained and done the work for an IM in September...why does their base phase have you building your base from scratch all over again starting in November. Was that not enough of a base to permit some harder efforts now? I guess not. This is why the gains tend to be minimal unless you really hammer away at the volume.
Essentially their "plans" are telling you that you will never have the base to really bust your balls with intervals and the really hard stuff. They certainly don't have any dedicated time in their plans for it unless you count an interval set here and there dedicated time.
In the EN Haus the difference is very clear. Your main 12-20 week seasons are your base. You do the volume there and build that endurance base strong. Then you get some time away (maybe). Then you do a couple easy transition weeks to get into the swing of things. Then you have the OS. (we won't talk about that). Rinse-Repeat-Vomit. It is a system designed to build upon itself and make you faster and faster progressively over time. The plans never reset and one years fitness builds into the next years gains. Isn't that why we do this?
I honestly have no idea how the retards on ST defend these other plans for normal people.
@Rich...how you talk here is different that ST? Really?
Another key factor to recognize is the too-shallow reading of TTB (etc) is that the "build" period is where intervals, etc are done. Not that we would agree on all the details with him, but even Friel has come around to stating that the "build" period (his nomenclature) is for race-specific training.
Grossly simplifying, the EN approach follows that theme in a sense....but it has to be very different because we're doing long course. Our winter is spent getting fast because our in-season "build" period cannot be spent doing that for the real life AG-er who has to work, take care of the kids, etc. Our "race specific" training is us laying the long on top of the fast. That doesn't seem so controversial to me.
Just a few thoughts to add or summarize:
1. Keep in mind Periodization is a broad concept of planning and executing training program from general to race specific. It is not only from slow to fast or base building to fast training, as some interpret it. It is a number of cycles string together that focus on certain abilities that form one's fitness. The focus periods can vary greatly in their nature, content and sequence. All greatly influenced by sport and the event within that sport. 200-400m swimmer trains in a completely different focus period sequence vs. marathon runner.
2. EN periodization concept fits long course athlete perfectly. For LC athlete, raising FTP and FTp belong to general phase as we do not race in that zone. It makes perfect sense to put it in OS and time it as our coaches do. Our race specific training comes later and is more endurance zone based as we do race in that zone. That does not mean that we abandon FTP work, we sure still do it, but it now has secondary focus or maintenance if you want. That is our fast than far.
3. For olympic and sprint specialist, it is Joe Friel's interpretation of periodization and lay out that make sense as he puts it. Their race specific work is elevating FTP, FTp and bike and run VO2max. That will be in their last 12 weeks of work, not Z2 and Z3 work as we do it. Does it mean they ride 4hr rides 4 weeks out, most likely not, they maintain endurance at that point with shorter segments as endurance takes secondary focus.
4. Worst case is( been there and done that) when AG-er takes on a plan that requires 18-25hrs a week of training, to quickly realize that with normal life it is impossible to do, than starts cutting the duration of workouts that are structured for long slow or some moderate work, ends trimming hours to his life's acceptable level and finds himself at 10-15 hrs a week of slow training that is neither long enough to induce anything nor it is intense enough to make him faster, so one finds himself in no men's land with a little to no improvement, very tired and slow.
5. I have trained under Eastern European coaches from Yugoslavia and Hungary as a member of flat water sprint kayak/canoe national team, all in 1980s. The achievements included several K1 500m, 1000m individual and team titles, one Worlds (the real Worlds, not self called) semifinals in K4 500m, on the team for Barcelona in 1992. We heavily used periodization in our work and produced many top level athletes. None of our work had any resemblance of what Joe Friel calls it and uses it. It is not in any way what US literature in triathlon calls it. True source here that uses those principles is USA Swimming.
Joe Friel, Gordo and others are not your true measurement in that sense. They took the idea, but added their twist to it and almost are turning it into dogma. It really is not. It is a very flexible concept that even we here at EN use it. We just don't call it that way.
First off, I am an EN fanatic to my core. But before landing here, I followed several different training plans which also provided success to me. The last two were Multi-Sports (Huddle and Frey) and for one IM cycle, Matt Fitzgerald's book of essential training plans (40 plans for $15 dollars - I got what I paid for). Both were 24 week plans, which basically had me training as if for a Sprint Tri for the first 6-8 weeks, then for an Olympic distance for the next 6-8, and finally, an HIM 4-8 weeks out. Bascially, it was fast before far, or effort before volume. They assumed my multi-year base leading into the IM training cycle. Multi-sports introduced me to hard trainer work with the bike for the first time, and my results showed it - PRs in all distances the first year I used it. Fitzgerald was so totally boring I couldn't follow it to the end, and my result showed it - the one and only time not on the podium (outside of Kona) 2004-10 at an IM.
So I don't think the philosophy of "fast before far" is the unique or prime selling point for EN. Rather, it is a combination of things: over-the-top customer service, a committment to continuous improvement of the product (plans and coaching), a real-life, down to earth approach ("It's not Rocket Surgery"), a strong emphasis on race execution strategy and skill, and, of course, all of you - the forums and the whole team.
My point is, a lot of coaching "services" do provide the same training strategy as EN, but not the other stuff, which is where the true value is in my opinion. There is no secret sauce here, just a lot of special people. And two very special guys running the show.
When do the typical plans add work to raise FTP and vDot?
I have just such a friendly competition going on right here in Lexington. I am following (and loving!) the EN approach, and a friend who lives just around the corner is with a local coach that I considered before joining here. As far as I can tell, he is still doing a lot of volume, long swims at 6am, 3 hour trainer rides, and slow runs. We are both signed up for the same IM this year, are within 10 pounds, 5 watts, and a couple of vDot points of each other, and are in the same age group. Only problem for me, he has done 16 IMs, qualified for Kona once, and been within seconds of qualifying several other times while I have only done one. It should be a fun year.
@Chris: typical plans, following the "old" (I guess, per WJ) Friel model, focus on FTP, etc in the Build Phase, the old Build 1 and 2 training blocks before a race.
The problem, for the Ironman athlete, is that this block also coincides with the highest training volume, as the athlete is also doing race specific volume for their race -- 5-6hr rides, 2.5-3hr runs. Intensity + Volume = crash.
By about 2002 I learned that the Friel model was 100% wrong for Ironman training, for the reasons above. I bought Going Long in 2003, when it came out, and skimmed it on the plane to IMCDA to race. I remember thinking that it was more Friel than Gordo, at least Gordo's 2003 thoughts at the time. I never finished the book.
As for what other coaches or athletes do, like I said, I don't know and I don't care. My attitude with discussions like this in other spaces is this: you know what you know, from having read a couple books, your own training, your training partners, etc. But when a guy who has been coaching Ironman athletes full time, successfully, since 2001 stands up and says something complete different from you know...you might want to consider that he just may know what he's talking about, even if it's counter to your book learnin'. Especially if that cat is coaching a team of 500+ athletes who, at every turn, have good things to say about the team's methods. Just sayin'.
@EB, the real Rich would pepper a discussion like that above with some colorful language. More importantly, I'm very passionate about all of you absolutely ripping the hearts and legs off of your training partners and competition. I'm not joking when I say that the minimum passing speed (the speed at which you pass riders or groups) of any EN athlete in EN cycling kit is 26mph. There's a reason why "Work is Speed Entering the Body" is right under the logo on the back: we want _that_ in the face of anyone trying to keep your wheel.
I've done multiple IM and HIMs. First IM was w/ Rich when he was CF. I did the best I could with the plan, but struggled to fit some stuff into my week at that time, and did about 80% of the plan, finished in 13 hrs.with very unbalanced splits. After that, focused on HIM and lowered PR from 6 to 530 doing a traditional approach ... along with a lot of running to improve my weakest of the 3 sports. After 2+ yrs of that effort I had a number of Run PRs from 10k to marathon, and a VDOT of about 40-41, on 30-35 miles a week running. For me, that's a lot of miles, and in part b/c I'm a big guy (6'4", 220), I had a lot of running issues as a result - patellar tendonitis, chronic hamstring things, etc., you get the picture. Any case, after 18 wks of OS, my VDOT is 42 (or more) and I am heading for run PRs that are 6-7 yrs old on about HALF the miles.
On the biike, I'm not a power geek, so only have HR and pace to go on, but I can say I've left a good bit of time on course from Canada to Florida to Lake Placid and more because I spent so long goin 18 mph that on race day I defaulted to the same thing. Just this week, I was on a group ride (my first in a long while), and I became really agitated at the JRA pace for the first hour+ ... went to the head of the line and kept the first number at 2 for a while, and it was EASY.
I don't have an IM on the calendar this year, but planning on doing 2-3 HIMs and I can tell you that the EN stuff is working for me ... and I've been at this a long time (15 yrs). The Gordo approach, IMO, is fine if (and this is a big, big if) you have (i) the time (ii) the mental focus (iii) the constitution/immune system (iv) biomechanics/genetics and (v) job/life to tolerate massive (20 hrs per week) volume across the year. Most people don't ... at least I know I don't .. and my results and injuries show it.
Rant off now
I new to EN, but have been doing IM's (on and off) since 2003...mostly self coached, but I have had two coaches who both believed in the Friel way and doing long hours all year long.
The last coach, I fired just the week before joining EN... He among other things wanted me to go out doing a three hour bike ride in (I believe) December whilst there was close to 10 inches of snow outside....very little positibve ROI on that (and other workouts) and with a real chance of getting injured...
I am in a position that I can train 25-30 hours a week, if I wanted to, but I just don't see the point in doing so this time of year.
At the same time, I originally build my entire fitness on the principle of "go max or not at all" and the long, slow principles just didn't sit well with me..
Another favorite workout he had, was 1 hour bike at Z1 PWR... This was the weekly workout that I found hardest to motivate myself to do as I thought of it as a waste of time..
I also work as a spinning instructor at the local fitness centre, and have found over the years that what really makes me strong (and what motivates me in training) is the hard stuff in the winter.. that's where all the fun is...and part of the reason I train at all...
If I hadn't joined EN, I would effectively be doing the same thing..just on my own...it is (for me) by far the most effective way of training...
BTW... not knowing the EN principles of non-swimming in the winter..I effectively did this in 2009 doing absolutely no swimming from October 4th (last IM of the season) until mid April 2010...The result... 7 minute Swim PR in my only IM of 2010 - even though I lost at least 5 minutes due to poor sighting and a run-in with a jellyfish.