Vibram FiveFingers

Peter Greagg

Hi guys

I am trying to improve my running efficiency (along with trying to boost my Vdot and FTP of course) and wondered whether the Vibram FiveFingers would help.  The idea I had was that the Vibram would make it easier to do (almost) barefoot running which I had read would (could?) improve my running efficiency.  I have inserts currently and am a heavy pronator.

Has anyone got any views of this?

Also, if it was thought to be worth trying, how would I go about using them?

Cheers

Peter Greagg

kolpster

Just my two cents: ease into them to avoid injury. I got them two years ago and went for a long run off the bat - ended up blowing out a disc in my back which took about 1.5 years to recover from. Brutal. My back was already hunting a bit, so I think these just pushed me over the edge which may have happened anyway. I still use them but just for shorter distances, easy runs.

graham_m_dunn

Religion aside (and you will see that Vibrams are religion with some), if you start running in them, you should drop your volume dramatically (as in the first couple weeks you're wearing them, your mileage should be measured in hundreds of feet, not miles).

You might investigate a pair of Saucony Kinvaras or Nike Frees (or if have a lot of disposable income, Newtons) as they'll give you a taste of less shoe without throwing your feet and calves to the wolves, so to speak. Or just pick up a pair of generic race flats.

There's also nothing special about running barefoot you can't do in shoes : just run around a nice lawn (or marble floor, if you have the means) barefoot for 15 minutes and then work on duplicating that foot strike with your shoes on. 

 

dan_forbes

 Peter, I am a five finger user, but not for running.  If I had grassy fields to run in all day, I would use them.  But I am skeptical using them on pavement or any hard surface.  I totally believe in natural running, and think there are merits to it, but we were meant to run on ground, not streets and sidewalks.  With that being said, I understand that there are many who use them for that purpose.  I'm sure there are tons of people who have success, and you certainly may be one of them.  Take heed to what everyone has said about easing in to them and be patient.  If you are looking for efficiency, be sure to do your form drills if you know some, and do some speed work, that will get you on the more efficient track with little worry about injury.  Good luck.

Dan

x3ministry

I have run the entire outseason in vibrams and I really like them. I did however, start running in them a solid month before starting the outseason so that my body could adapt. It was a very tedious process. As others have stated, you must start out with very light volume. Your calves will be screaming. The only issues I have experienced is doing my V02 intervals on the open road. If the terrain starts to point down I start to heel strike and that my friend is painful when there is no cushioning. I have logged a lot of miles in these shoes and I love them. They are not a magic bullet but they are worth trying just don't expect instant results.

David R

I tried them in a store last year to see if they would work for me.  I am a mid foot striker.  I knew right away they wouldn't work for me I come down to hard and I could feel everything getting jarred at every step.  I ended up with Nike Free +.

Al Truscott

By running more "efficiently", I guess you mean running faster, with less chance of injury. VFF are one of several shoes which can help you do that, as Graham notes. For me, over the years, I've found that shoe style can help with those goals in several ways. First, the lighter, the better, as a general rule. Second, the lower the heel in the shoe, the better. Third, the less manipulation the shoe does to my foot, the better. (Also, for my foot, I need a wide toe box to prevent black toenails). All of these things help the foot be more internally mobile, and stronger, as well as helping you land more towards the front of your foot than the rear. I currently run on Mizuno Waves (4 oz), Newtons, Kinveras, and Saucony Fastwitch. Shifting from inserts and clunkers (ASICS 21XX) to lighter, more flexible shoes should be done with caution, as noted above. The bigger you are (I'm 143 #), the bigger the risk, so the slower the process. At first, I would just do my short bricks in the lighter, flimsier shoes. Then, throw in intervals, and finally, long runs. BTW, I've done 10 IM marathons now over the past 5+ years in racing flats. No injuries, no pain. It can work.

IMO, VFF are a fetish//fad, and I won't wear them, cause I feel geeky enough in my aero helmet. Besides, they weigh more than my Waves.

Peter Greagg

Thank you everyone for your wisdom. 

My take on what you have told me is that there could well be benefits to me from the Vibram, but I would have to be very careful in getting used to them — As I have my A race on May 7, I would leave it until after then if I was to try.

Second, a lighter shoe would help in any case (thanks Al).

Cheers

Scott Alexander

I got my VFF over 2 years ago. Ran the very first day, 2 miles, at a slow pace. Then I couldn't walk for a week - they HURT!

I must reinfoce the statements about working your way into them, over time and distance. I use Nike Frees almost all the time now when running. But I still like to throw on the VFFs and use them for a mile or two every once in a while. As a matter of fact, I think I'll do it after my run tomorrow, on the dreadmill, for a mile-ish.

Peter Greagg

Thanks Scott for sharing your experience — sloooooowly does it ')" unselectable="on" style="width: 20px; height: 20px; cursor: hand">" onmousedown="return false;" src="http://members.endurancenation.us/DesktopModules/ActiveForums/themes/_default/emoticons/tongue.gif" width="20" height="20" alt="" />

tgarson

Al pretty much captured my sentiments and I have a pretty similar collection of shoes to him. I'm somewhat of a shoe junkie, especially when it comes to minimalist / 'natural' running, a topic that I approached with a fair amount of skepticism but have since fully embraced.

Same with Al, the keys for me are weight and heeldrop, with as little of both as possible. I have racing flats, Zoots, Saucony Kinvaras, Newton neutral trainers, and Newton neuatral racers currently in rotation, along with a pair of VFF on the way. I don't buy into all of the hype surrounding Newtons, however my Newton neutral racers are still my favorite shoes despite having evaluated and been pleased with cheaper minimal alternatives such as the Kinvara. I don't wear the Newtons because I think they are re-inventing my stride, I've had a mid-foot stride for a while, I wear them because they are fairly light and responsive, have a very nice 'road' feel due to the plate in the forefoot, and have minimal heel drop in comparison to most other shoes. Newton is rumored to be working on a new racing flat with no heel drop whatsoever, which I'll be looking forward to quite a bit.

As for the Vibrams, I've avoided them for quite some time for a number of reasons:

• They are a fad, even if they are fantastic at what they are intended to, I think a comparatively small % of people will end up buying a second pair. Fad != horrible, just that I don't expect their popularity to sustain.
• The price seems excessive for what you are getting, part of the fad process of striking while the iron is hot. Similar argument can be applied to Newton.
• This sounds arrogant, but I am bothered by the number of very beginner runners who have asked me about or told me that they are switching to VFF.

More on that last point, I'm not recommending that everyone goes out and runs exclusively in clumsy stability trainers for years before they try them, but they can be very risky if you are not careful with them as many people will attest. I've also learned the hard way, having developed a nasty stress fracture in my foot my first year of simply going from traditional cushioned trainers to lighter shoes with less drop, let alone going straight to barefoot.

I think the vast majority of runners I’ve met asking about the VFF would be better served by paying attention to their form as a whole, controlling motion, becoming more aware of their feet and gait, making changes progressively and conscientiously to avoid injury, getting a basic understanding of economy of motion and why a change to gait may improve running efficiency-- understanding that adopting effective training methodology is the key to getting faster, not some magic bullet shoes that will change everything overnight.

Despite how lengthy and crazy this rant is becoming, I still decided to give the VFF a try. Mostly because I have been doing a lot of functional strength training recently with kettlebell and TRX, indoor fitness either on gym mats or carpet where I much prefer the feel and feedback of bare feet, but also would appreciate some extra grip and warmth as it gets quite chilly in the basement this time of year. I picked up a pair of KSO primarily for this purpose; however I also plan to evaluate them as running platform of course at some point during my ownership of them.



 

 

Spokane_Al

I think that whatever direction you choose to go in towards a more minimal shoe, caution is the word. Last year I bought a pair of Nike Free shoes and started by using them for all my short bricks during the OS. I really liked the feel and weight but was nervous about running much more than 30 minutes at a time in them.

This year I am running in Saucony Kinveras and really like them. I have been able to complete the OS runs (up to 1.25 hours so far) in them with only minimal calf soreness which I attribute towards running those many, many shorter runs in my Nike Frees.

As Al says, going for a lighter shoe has a number of merits and the major one for me is that I just feel faster and seem to run faster. And of course, as a high 170 pound guy, I must continue to be careful.

TundraCat

My n=1, somewhat piggy backing on some of the topics Al and others touched on. Basically, VFF are tool which in some cases can help.



So a few years back I was a classic heel striker and had the motion control shoes, inserts, blah blah blah. Had shin splints - ouch ... blah blah blah. running sucks more than swimming blah blah blah.



Took it upon myself to change my strike pattern and become a fore/mid foot runner one off season 2 years ago. Local shoe store had a Newton shoes to try before you buy. After the first and the subsequent days after my calves were screaming because they were getting used in a manner they had never been. I think that regardless of VFF, Newton, Lightweight trainer etc. that if you use one of these shoes that promotes running different than what you do now be careful. If you are already not a fore/mid foot runner, the first foray into this new running is going to hurt and like others have said take it SLOW. If you are not patient and I mean really patient person then you'll probably end up injured with the new running because your body is not used to that type of stress, you'll overreach cause you are feeling fine.



I took the Newtons back. Why? because they forced me into a position I obviously was not ready for. So I opted for neutral running shoe that I could slowly practice fore/mid foot running and when that practice session was over or I tired I could go back to 'old' foot strike without the lug. It took me about 3 months before I could complete 3 mile run and but I still had to consciously remind myself to run the new way. It was still not automatic and when I tired I would slip back into my old running especially after about 6 miles.



Got through the entire season and by the end of it, I was running with my new gait without thinking about it. I now have to consciously try to heel strike now. However, with this fore/mid foot strike I noticed that I was landing on the outer edge and rolling into the push off because I was wearing the crap out of the edge of my shoes (esp the Kinveras). Kind of like the way Carefrae lands but I'm MUCH MUCH slower than her Now I wanted to clean that up a bit because 1) it's expensive getting shoes 2) probably not ideal but works for Carefrae.



What I found/read looking into the barefoot running hype, was barefoot running could probably help clean up that part of my strike because landing like I was barefoot would probably cause me to roll my ankle. So I got a pair of VFF my second year (I live in WI, too cold for bare feet) to help reinforce this running and get me off landing on the edges of my feet. Because I already had changed my gait, the only concern was not injuring the front on my foot with the modified strike so I still took it slow. The VFF helped clean up my landing without me having to go through consciously thinking about it which is very difficult cause my mind wonders when trying to remember something so subtle 180+ times a minute. So in this case, the VFF helped me more easily correct this. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have bothered with them.



So the net effect of all this monkeying with my strike is I do run lighter and I don't feel like I'm pounding my body into the ground running. I recover so much better as a result. I've PR'd a recent 10k so I know it hasn't slowed me down I'm still not doing any speed work because I need to build more base with my new running ( I changed a 41 year old habit). I know I'm not ready for the track because even though I feel/know I took it slow I still had some setbacks when trying the faster/harder efforts (but never in VFF). Next year is the year I hit the track again or at least give it an honest go.

Peter Greagg

Thanks to all people that responded.  It is much appreciated.

EN rocks

murphy.m.j

 wanted to give my thoughs on VFF's:

a) using them during a 1/2 ironman in steelhead 2010 i loved the fact that when i went thru a water area, the shoes just wicked the water, etc. off no problem.  So they weighed less over that distance.  

b) I am not sure about efficiency, and alot of other factors as to why people may or may not used VFF's; mine was a weight thing for a race; I had no problems with hips, ankles in using the shoes at all.  Faster, I dont think so but I felt they help in me making the race at the end.

c) i am sure they are great for training as they work on your ankles more then normal shoes.  Minor trade-offs when you stub a toe it really hurts. I easily ran thu stones and other garbage, felt the items when i went thru but it did not puncture thru the shoe at all.

Peter Greagg

@ Michael — Thanks for the response.  I was thinking about using them to help me run "more natually" as I have been using motion control shoes and inserts.

Cheers

Peter

CharlieH

Just to echo what everyone has said - ease into them!! They feel ace to run in and I feel I can go on for ages HOWEVER whilst it does not hurt at the time I can promise you your calves will be sheer agony the next day..... I rotate between VFF, race flats and regular run shoes.

Peter Greagg

Thanks Charlie. If I get them I will ease into them gently.

Cheers
Peter