VDOT decline of 4 points from 5K to 1/2 Mary

Scott Liston

Folks

Some EN philosophy and experience here, please.  So my 5K run test and racing experience and my half marathon racing experience mean a VDOT spread of 4.7 points from 46.2 for 5K  to 41.5 for Half Mary.  These two VDOTs are from late September for the 5K (21:15) and late October for the Half Marathon (1:47:20) when I was run focused.

Question 1: Is this about what others experience or is my 13.1 fitness just not up to par compared to my 5K?

Question 2: As I face the half marathon that is my end of OS race, I would like to go a 1:41 which would be a 44.6.  Should I expect to be able to do that if I exit the OS with a 5K VDOT of about 49 given my ~4 point drift?

Question 3: What I thought I would then do going in to general prep and then IM training as I set my run pace efforts is live with the spread rather than fight it. So when feeling great/shorter stuff - the pace high end is based on 49 (5K) VDOT.  Longer stuff, runs off the bike, not feeling as good: push myself to at least hold pace based on ~45 (Half Mary) VDOT.  Make sense?

Of course all this assumes a constant weight.

Thoughts, experience, vigorous debate, welcome.

Scott

Paul Hough

Scott - I'm going to respond from my running background, which may or may not comport with EN philosophy. As a longtime runner, I scored my best races at each distance on the Purdy scale which is based on a percentage score against the world best for that distance. A similar method would be to use various online race predictor calculators. The assumption is that if you can produce a result of X at say, the 5K distance, then you should be able to achieve a Y result at a longer distance (or vice versa). Either direction assumes that you have done the specialized training for that event. If you are going up in distance then to get the same relative result (or VDot), you have to have the mileage and long intervals necessary to hold the speed over the longer distance. I used to live in Southern California and trained with a friend who was an 800 meter specialist. He could kick my ass at 800m and down, edge me in the mile, but at 5K I was in a different zip code, and he would not even attempt a 10K or longer...because he didn't have any base to speak of. Likewise, my personal bests tracked fairly consistently between 5K and 30K then fell off at the marathon. I never achieved a marathon best within 5 minutes of all predictive charts. Either I did not train right or I just had better medium distance capacity.
In my opinion, EN OS training builds high VDot at very low volume. You can't and shouldn't expect an equivalent result until you bring in some volume, and that's going to come later in the program. I can't answer your questions directly, because it really depends on your own genetics (percentage slowtwitch muscle) and training program. I'm not suggesting that you should increase volume now, just that when you do, your actual result should come closer to your expectation.

Carrie Chavez

Hi Scott,

I don't know the exact answer to your question but I feel your pain. Based on my Vdot from 5 K test I should be able to run a 3:04 marathon( AS IF!!!!). There is no freaking way. My girlfriend on the other hand tests better at a 13.1 mile race, can run 1:25 or so but with her 5 K she tests at a lower vDot than she tests for the 1/2. Some folks can go FAST forever. Some have a top end that is amazing for 5K. I believe a 1/2 marathon Vdot is more appropriate for pacing for your IM. Someone will have a guide for you to follow.

I believe some folks can test the same at all distances.

Carrie

kurshing

Your 5k paces and your 13.1 paces will start to come together as your endurance grows. Most of us probably really don't have a match in those 2 numbers. BUT, the purpose of the 5k pace is to provide training paces, and a metric. For our long course purposes, the 13.1 is really a more appropriate number. However, for an open half mary, I bet (having done all of this work that we've now done) you will be fine using the 5k time...just don't go faster than that on race day (which might be hard!).

If you look at the EN race protocol (at least for 70. & 140.6) you will notice that there is a open construction to the pacing strategy towards the end of the race, which will allow you to explore your limits.

Here is the bottom line...get through the OS and then pick your head up to set a pacing goal...marry yourself to the work and the race strategy execution, and not a time. Of course, I have a hard time with this myself!

atasic

 Few thoughts:

1. In order to compare VDOT of two different races and different distance also:

same temp, terrain/profile, wind

you have completed that distance specialized training, volume+interval length, amount of I, T, R....paces, E pace as well

Now, having that out of the way, EN OS is geared towards 5K-10k on a very low volume compared to pure runners not triathletes. You cannot expect to have a half marathon VDOT equal to 5k as this training is not geared to half marathon, even with the hack for half, I doubt as the volume and amount of intervals maybe insufficient for longer distance to achieve full potential.

It would be fair game to take a VDOT at 5k now through the end of OS, than as you switch to long course race prep and you lay far on top of your fast, race a half and take a VDOT. Than, it should be close.

Just my 2 cents. What you got is pretty normal.

Scott Liston

Paul, Carrie, Stephen, Alexandar  Thank you. Great stuff.  Here's what I am picking up so far:

Q1:  Yep, not too unusual to see a VDOT drift like mine in Da Haus.

Q2: I should not worry that by my current 5K VDOT I should be able to do the half mary in 1:35.  As Carrie says, "AS IF"

For me, the OS is likely not sufficient training even with the hack  to "hold" that VDOT through 13.1 miles.  So my thought that as I lift my 5K VDOT, my half mary times should lift proprtionately is not a bad one.

Q3:  That end of OS half mary VDOT can be very useful.   Its implied TH pace is probably about right to use as I get in to general prep and IM training.

 

 

William Jenks

On a run only program, it's pretty common (in fact the norm) for the 5K VDOT to be 1.0-1.5 points higher than for the open half marathon. Something like 2.0-2.5 is the norm for 5K to open marathon.

All things being equal, 4 points is more than you'd expect if you were really equally trained for both distances, conditions were similar, etc.

The half marathon hack of the OS program does have some longer runs added in the last 4-6 weeks if I recall correctly. Hopefully that would add some of that endurance to hold the paces better.

Al Truscott

Some lucky people here @ EN do have a VDOT for HM higher than for 5K. Not me, I'm about 3 points lower in the HM. I use the 5K DOT for training intervals in daily workouts, and the HM VDOT for planning my pace when racing IM.

As others have said, if you want to have a faster HM, you can find it there inside you, but you'll have to ramp up the training specifically for that.

MattAaronson

I am one of the "lucky" folks who seems to always have a medium-distance (15k, HM) VDOT that is higher than my 5k/8k VDOT. The difference seems to be consistent at about 2 points difference. I'm not sure why it is, but for some reason my 5k just isn't as fast as it should be based on 13.1 times. This is my first EN outseason, so perhaps by the springtme things will be different. But I doubt it, given the amount of HMP in training and the fact that the runs (other than bricks) are already 60 mins and getting longer. I can understand why my VDOT profile makes me "lucky" for longer races, but I really, really, really want to run a sub-20:00 5k so hopefully I can nail that sucker this spring!!!

kurshing

@ Matt - what is your athletic background?

I would suspect that soccer, basketball, and football backgrounds would yield higher 5k vDots because we have learned to utilize explosive speed which can translate a little to the 5k. We are all able to sprint pretty quickly, which gives us a little help with the 5k that can't really translate to a HM.

Conversely, I could also see how someone with a cross country background might not have develed that sprinting/explosive speed...not that cross country runners aren't fast. I am trying to throw SOME kind of rationale out there to consider...

MattAaronson

@ Stephen - My "athletic background" is minimal. Couch potato until 2 years ago. I literally did no sports in school. I get your point, though...some of the team sports that are more explosive and less endurance-related might set you up to be disproportionately better performances over shorter distances. Of course the reason people go into those sports may be because they are physically configured to excel at them. So it is probably physiologically wired-in at some level.

mancona

@Stephen and Matt - I agree.

I'm in the same situation as Matt and for the last 3 years have tested to a higher vdot at the half marathon than 5k. I go to track workouts and get absolutely killed by guys at 400s, 800s and mile repeats, but then I run a faster half marathon.

I'm sure most of it is my background vs theirs. They all did soccer, football, track, or cross country in high school and many in college as well. I didn't swim, bike or run until about 6 years ago. For the 6 years before that I did nothing and walked as little as possible. Prior to that I was a gymnast for a few years in high school. Of course genetics probably impacts this as well, but until we start to get towards are potential peak fitness I think we can train our bodies to get better at both.

The good news is the longer I have been doing this the smaller the gap between my 5k and half marathon is getting.

gopetego

 

This thread was a good read.....was wondering why I can meet all my vDot times except for the marathon (way off).....I guess at the end of the day, its about what type of running you emphasis in your training.  I tend to love the 10k and HM - thus see most of my improvements there...but physcially I'm proably best built for the 100 meters.....ha

Scott Liston

Thanks all. Great points.  I will take heart that my spread of 4 points is close to Al's!  It sounds like specificity of training as I prepare for my enod of OS HIM should help close my 5K to HIM gap and get me closer to my goals.  It also sounds like as my general fitness improves and prehaps my weight drops , I will continue to close the gap.

Coach Patrick

Great stuff here. To add, the 5k vDOT numbers when used to extrapolate out to other distances show your your POTENTIAL, not your current fitness. As in you could, one day, run a 3:04 Carrie, but you'd have to ditch 80 mile rides, run only, recovery like a fool, etc....a 5k number now typically means minus 1.5 for a Half Mary and minus 2.5 for a Mary...so I think you have some room to grow (but still great work all)!