Strength training in EN

mcstrangelove

I know those are dirty words in EN, but I'm wondering if (for me) eliminating it altogether is a bad idea.  I don't mean machine work (leg press, leg extensions, etc).  More like single-leg squats, kettlebell dead lifts, and old-school full body exercises.  I'm starting to believe that the lack of lateral movement in my training is creating weak stabilizing muscles.  I also have weak glutes (min, med, max) and don't engage them as well during biking/running as I do by isolating them.  Aside from a few swim-specific exercises that use weights, most of these exercises use my own body weight.  

Am I wasting my time adding a couple of sessions a week to strengthen my glutes & stabilizing muscles?  If so, what is a better way to get some lateral movement into my workouts?  And if not, when is a good time to do these (they kick my butt) so they don't infringe on my weekly workouts (on my day off?  on the day after a long ride/run?)?

Thanks for your help!

Paul Hough

I'm doing it all, but I'm also over 50. Even when I was much younger I had read that strength training becomes more important as you get older because it's harder to hold muscle mass. In EN terms, I would argue that the ROI increases as you age. I started lifting year-round at 49...generally twice a week except for my 12 week IM run-ups when I drop back to once a week. I am doing some machines, and a lot of other stuff that I mix in including step ups, lunges, jumping lunges, rear lunges, push-ups, band work, squats, squats on a bosu ball, beer keg lifts, medicine ball slams, etc, etc. Due to my schedule, I do these on Tuesday and Thursday morning following immediately by a run. I've read that it's better to lift after endurance workouts, but my schedule is not amenable to any alteration.

kefali69

@ Mac - My vote is to keep up with the stabilizer strengthening.  Unless you integrate a lot of trail running or uneven terrain, your muscles will adapt in one plane - forward+vertical.  With regards to cycling, there's really not much you can do or need to do.  After a killer case of ITBS several years ago, and a major knee blowout (via bike crash) in '09, I found that the lateral elements not only need to be maintained, but in balance with everything else.  It keeps things tracking properly - especially once you start putting in long miles on fatigued legs.

Coach Rich

 

Doode, if you want to buy a Buns of Steel video, just ask

Nemo Brauch

I'm a big fan of core/stabalization routines. And you'll find EN is actually pretty supportive of it too. Go check ou the Wiki and you'll find a whole set of routines set up by our own Leigh Boyle that are the perfect addition to the EN plans.

Coach Rich

My personal rule is I don't do anything that I feel will compromise my ability to bike and run the plan. It's February and I know I need to fire up my LoseIt app, pushups, core, and pullups routine. For me, that's enough. I don't do any leg exercises because, I feel, they don't make me a faster runner or cyclist and would be very difficult to work them into the bike and run training I want to do. IE, can't do the Tues ride I want to do because my legs are worked from the lunges and other stuff I did on Monday. I know my Tues bike will make me faster so it has priority.

Brenda Ross

I do a 30 minute small muscle group workout x 2 a week. Rotator cuff, rhomboids,glute med/min,max etc...

Tom Glynn

As RnP will say, this is a triathlon group, not a strength training group. The best ROI to a faster triathlon time is skipping the weights and doing tri stuff. Having said that, strength training is highly recommended, especially as we get older for a whole bunch of reasons, but not for getting faster at your next tri.

mcstrangelove

Thanks for all the input.  I think my problem is (like Rich said) having the exercises compromise my EN workouts.  At the moment, I'm just barely able to complete all the EN workouts at the correct zones, times, etc.  I know adding in the lunges and other exercises are a necessity for me, but they will most certainly affect my runs/rides.

I guess I'll aim for MUCH shorter strength sessions and build from there. I'll aim for doing them after cycling workouts since my recovery seems to be better cycling than running (which puts me out the rest of the day).

@Rich - is there a buns of steel podcast in the wiki?? 

rfw6110

I'm 45, lift upper body only and do core work 3 times / wk, mostly for toning (vanity) and to stave off muscle mass loss as a result of aging.  My legs get enough work doing the OS work.  Even before EN, I never lifted legs because I wanted them fresh for running and biking.  Gotta stretch more though! 

GregSVan

Anyone try any of the structured group programs for core workouts. At our gym, we have a "speed school" called Parisi. Pretty neat program. I haven't had a chance to go down and try it out; Im worried that they will be throwing routines that will either injure or worsen my tri specific workouts. That being said, it would be fun to be in a group session. Convenient too; happens over lunch.

kurshing

I think the bottom line is one question: do you want to be fast or ripped (while maintaining life/sport balance)?

EN alone is the prescription for speed. Anything more starts to jeopardize the effectiveness of the workouts (and your effectiveness in doing them).

If you want to simply lose weight or get ripped...then do so. Just know that EN's approach is centered on getting fast, not a great beach body necessarily.

ghernand

mac:

as the others have said regarding weight training in general:  it's up to what makes you happy (speed or heavy bulging muscles).

however, in reading your original post, you seemed to be concerned about glutes and core specifically.  to that end, there is no way to build bulky core muscles.  these muscles can only help you if they are strong, so no worries about losing speed there.  however, doing the core exercises with weights other than your own weight is VERY bad.  don't do it.  it's excessive.

as for the glute weakness: impossible to not engage them properly when you run or bike, unless you have an innervation issue.  they will get stronger by you running and riding more.  good technique will get the most out of those muscles, along with a stronger core, but your issue is not weak glutes, likely weak technique.

good luck!

gh

p.s. paul (hough), you weight lift and then run!!!! oy! just don't start carrying anvils around like they do in cross fit!!!!

 

Coach Rich

There's a doode who trots around the Rose Bowl (we figure 2 laps, 6mi) with about a 50lb bar across his shoulders, no pad on his neck, like he's about to do a miltary press. Don't do that.

ghernand

I've seen that guy!!!!! He must be the Dali lama of crossfit!!!
He somtimes puts 10lb plates on that bar.

Justine Oppenheim

Would have to agree w/Justin on this one.  Experiencing some ITB issues and feel that a little strength training helps w/muscle imbalances and counteracts the effects of continually training in 2 planes of motion (front-back).  I try to get to a strength & conditioning workout @ CATZ here in the Boston area, but will ensure it does not compromise my ability to get the EN workouts done.  Of course, I am a noobie to EN, so trying to find a happy balance.  Found stretching also makes a huge difference and will try and get in a few hip mobility, band walks, and core work done throughout the week.

Nate Parady

I do about 20 minutes of very light weights maybe twice a week and only when I'm already at the gym using the treadmill..I never go out of my way to lift weights. Running and biking has the first priority. I do ab work while I'm stretching and sometimes knock out some good old army pushups to remind myself of how many I once was able to do in two minutes. I never do leg work b/c since starting the OS in October my legs have been sore and or tired most of the time without the added burden of doing leg work.
My .02..

mcstrangelove

Getting "buff" isn't something I'm trying to do...lol.  As mentioned in my original post, I have structural weakness in my glutes/hip flexors.  Unfortunately, just running and/or cycling does NOT automatically work the glutes.  In many cases if the glutes are not properly engaged pre-run, they will not fire properly leaving the burden of the workout on the hamstrings/calves.  I've found out thru several coaches and a sports science doctor that most runners don't understand this issue and unknowingly aren't running at their full potential. I had the opportunity to discuss this with an elite coach who analyzed my gait and form and felt it wasn't due to technique, that there is indeed a structural weakness (something I share with most triathletes apparently) and his analysis corroborated with that of the other coach and doctor.  Sounds like focused floor work (band walks, lateral lunges, etc) is the way to go, but factoring it into the EN week is gonna be the tough part.

ghernand

mac,

funny how your original query turned into a 'why do want to get buff thread!!!!'

hope your structrual weakness issue gets resolved.  very interesting that you have found so many specialists who subscribe to the same theory.  maybe i'll meet this cohort one day and learn a thing or two.

good luck!

gh

Coach Rich

Hey Mac,

If your limitations are really that severe, then another way to look at it would be make fixing yourself your priority and tri training (or perhaps just running) secondary. In other words, stand down from the run, hard, for 4-8wks to apply your focus to fixing yourself, then pick up the run again when your wheels are ready.