Expected FTP gains during the outseason
Coaches and experienced members,
For a well trained athlete who is new to EN and new to power training, what are the expected gains during the outseason? I know it's entirely individual but are is there a "power gain curve" that is seen over the 20 weeks? At what point do people start to plateau their power gains? For example if an FOP athlete increased their FTP by 10% in the first block, what would you expect their gains (or losses) to be for the remainder of the program?
Thanks,
Luke
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Comments
Good thread, hopefully people with chime in with some digits!
My own experience the first time around, after 10 years of tri training, 5 of which I thought were fairly well focused on the bike, was 10% in the first 6-8 weeks, with another 5% over the course of the rest of the year. I suspect that's a typical pattern: a hyperbolic curve with an initial steep slope, followed by continued gains of lesser and lesser magnitude reaching some unknown but probably depressingly low asymptote.
Inexperienced guy example. Have done two ironmans. Relatively new to the bike. Here is my testing since joining EN. So 10% increase for me.
2008/2009 OS - 175 watts to 225 watts
Took last year off structured training. Rode a lot.
2010/2011 OS (so far) - 220 watts to 252 watts
2010 OS to 2010 in-season: 195 to 240.
Nov 10 OS: 187-->221->225->end OS->???
But I am also focused on body comp not just training and lost 15 lb so far.
From 2010 - Started Nov OS around 220, after week 8 240ish, ended 250ish.
From 2011 - Started Nov OS around 245, after week 265ish, now around 280ish.
I don't think you will see losses, you may start to consolidate gains. The 6 weeks of VO2 work are needed but certainly leave the legs tired. Would love to hear your progress.
I started at/near my all time best (regardless how I got there), and will have to push very hard to get that 15%, but I am already over 10% (228-->255).
If you started below where you were the year before, that hyperbolic curve that Al describes sounds very reasonable.
If you started without having done any serious speed work at all, there may be very substantial gains.
But I wouldn't doubt Patrick's short and sweet answer either.
My second OS with EN, Fall 2009 – Spring 2010 plus race prep for June IM.
I am new to structured training program with power. I had very little experience before this outseason on how to properly do the intervals. I have only figured it out in the last quarter of the outseason. I think there is a mental learning curve in addition to the training effect that pushes up the FTP.
I've gone form 225W (slightly embellished) to 245 and hope to hit 250+ with the last indoor test.
Next year will be even better
In my experience, for many people a sizeable fraction of the gains made in the first 1-2 tests can be the result of the athlete learning what "work" and "hard" are, especially if they are coming from an LSD background. They learn that their hard really wasn't all that hard, especially if they also start training with power soon after joining EN, so a good bit of their initial gains can be attributed to the process of learning a new definition of "hard."
After that though it's all fitness gains, which I would say are typically 15-20%.
But y'all likely don't appreciate, and what we'll around here in the next 4-6wks, is that a 20-30w gain is NO JOKE, in terms of speed on the road. You're gonna have soooooo much fun when you get outside and ride with your training partners.
If you don't know power, then 245w ---> 280w is just a change in numbers. But if you do know power, you know there is a universe of difference between those two numbers. And if you add to that a 10-15lb weight loss...game over, lights out.
Seriously, April is like holiday season for PnI, as we let you off the leash to run with the dogs. Fun stuff!!
Thanks everyone for sharing their experiences!
I think I fit right in with most observations. I didn't have a PM upon starting EN so my first "test" was based on HR. Between that test and the two since there is a world of difference. My hard workouts live in a HR zone that I couldn't previously hold on the bike. On the trainer without a fan my power is up to 3.5 w/kg and my FTP is probably 10-15% higher than before I started. As we get outside and increase our training duration the winter chub should start to melt away. My goal is to get to 3.8 w/kg while keeping a nice aero position.
Thanks again for the feedback.
-Robert
Yes Christian, next year will be even better. I started where you started, albeit not embellished
@luke, just wait till you get outside! Rich is so right. Your training buddies will wonder what you have been doing. My normal guys were shocked with my progress lat OS. First race of the year picked up 2.5mph on a 29mi bike course. And this was after a HIM RR and a good hard 20mi ride with the boys. So basically my legs were shot for the race. Rested I would have had another mph I think. So basically what I am saying is that workworks!
I'm impressed with some of the improvements here.. My FTP is only up from 237W (Wk 1) to 239W (Wk 8) to 245W (Wk 14) with consistent testing protocols and body weight. I've done all of the scheduled workouts but not yet seeing some of the big gains others have reported. Hoping to at least crack 250W for the last indoor test..
Is it April yet?
Sept '10 260W
Oct '10 284W (start of Oct OS test)
late Nov '10 308W
January '11 298W (in almost failed test)
January 305W (got sick over christmas and also didn't seem to respond well to the VO2 stuff)
Feb '11 310W (end of OS test, was happy to have my mojo back and at least beat the Nov test)
I'm sure a lot of my initial gains were simply from underperforming on my first couple of tests. Now I just need to not be such a fat arse and I'll be all set... 10 lbs down, 10-15 more to go...
This is my first OS too. I train with HR so the info is less precise than training with power, but I've seen gains in the 15% range that Coach P cites. For my second test I saw a 14% improvement in the miles covered in 40' vs the baseline test. Could be that I just learned what hard means as Coach R describes, but I feel stronger too. I know I can crank along at a HR that just 4 months ago I would have said "no way". For the test this past week (week 14 Dec OS) I saw a 2% increase on top of the 2nd test. So that's right in the 15% ballpark range. And my running (my strength) has never been better. Set a 5k PR (well at least a PR for this century) this week.
I did my week 20 test today and here are my OS results:
Test 1 289
Test 2 294
Test 3 306
Test 4 308
6.5% gain
Must have been all that lollygagging you did last season helped out this year Patrick!
So is week -24 of the OS workout next year going to be..."Crash your bike into a guardrail at TOC, break your hip, spend a week in the hospital, then a month in a wheelchair..."?
Congrats on a great OS! Good to see the coaches leading from the front. You're going to crush LP this year. Can't wait to see you on the run!
20 Week OS plan...executed to the letter except for two things...and this is where I'll get a backhand from the Coaches...#1 - I swam on Monday's and Friday's and I skiied about 1X per week. My FTP went from 268 to 273. However, my confidence went up dramatically. Here's what I mean by that statement - I started the OS somewhat "scared" of 2 X 20'. I learned to embrace it. I am now to the point where I'm in my IM plan and I don't mind 2 X 20'. And doing 40+ mins of Z4 riding on the front end of a 4 hour ride scared me to death - now it's a part of what I do. I have also found that even though my FTP hasn't jumped a ton my Z3 fitness has increased. Meaning I am now more capable of holding Z3 for long sets or steady rides at the top end of my Z3 power zone. Also, when I began the OS I was 168 and lean (so I thought) - after the OS I am MUCH leaner and I lost about 5-7 lbs in the process. As a result, my power/weight ratio is better than it was before. I feel fitter and lighter across all three disciplines.
I think if I would set aside the swimming and skiing that my result could be better next time around. But I like those two sports and I do all of these activities for the fun and fitness.
Test results from a while ago:
test 1 215 (10/20/07)
test 2 233 (11/24/07)
test 3 259 (1/2/08)
test 4 269 (1/29/08)
test 5 250 (3/17/08)
test 6 275 (4/8/08)
test 7 279 (6/30/08)