Stem down or fewer spacers??
I did a recent fit where the fitter moved my bars up from about -14cm to -6.5 cmd from seat to pads. His feeling was that I was too tight in the back for long course.
Of course being higher is more comfortable, but I think I'd still like to have a "short course" configuration. I also thing -6.5 might be a little too high for me, although admittedly -14 was too aggressive.
So, to get me at -6.5 he put four cm of spacers under my bars and flipped my 6 degree stem up. A few weeks ago I decided to step down a bit and flipped my stem back down, leaving the spacers. That brought my drop from -6.5cm to -11cm. I'm pretty comfortable at -11 and can ride aero for 1.5 to 2 hours.
Sorry for the long build up... Here's my question. Aerodynamically, would it be better to leave flip the stem down (-6) and leave the 4 spacers under the bars or would it be better to flip the stem up (+6) and then remove the 4 spacers? I know the ideal would be -6 and no spacers, but that would probably leave me pretty uncomfortable again.
I saw someone recently post this in ST, but I thought I'd prefer EN opinions on this. Thanks!
Comments
Surely back flexibility is the easy target? Target hamstrings (stretching, foam roller etc.) and then wall roll downs etc. for the back. Doesn't take much more than 5-10mnins/day and it comes fairly quickly.
I bet if you just keep doing longer rides at that -11 cm configuration, you'll stretch right into it over 6 weeks or so. As a general rule for average size, average speed guys, your assessment is right on: 14 may be a bit too much, 6.5 is certainly too little drop. My fitter (a PT and bike racer) who last year had me @ -13.8 cm, upped me to -11 cm last week, after I went in following my broken back/neck of last fall. I can't imagine going up another 5 cm!
For the miniscuale aero difference it makes, the stem in the "normal" or flat configuration probably moves less air.
What Al said about becoming used to a position. That said, drop is a function of saddle height and elbow pad height and, generally speaking, a taller person will naturally have a larger drop than a shorter person, due to the geometry of the bicycle. In other words, very easy (from the mechanics of bike) for a 6'3" dude on a 56-58cm bike to have a 14cm drop. However, impossible for a 5'6" dude on a 52cm bike to have that drop because there's only so much to work with given 2 x 700c wheels and frame to hang them on. For this guy, he may only get to an 8cm drop but can still be more aero than Mr 14cm drop.
All of this is to say that we don't know the whole story with only one simple "drop" number, as drop is a function of rider height, frame size, saddle and elbow pad height.
That said, going from 14cm (or was it 11?) to 6cm is a big change. You're giving up a lot of aeroness there. Did your fitter try moving the saddle forward first? This would open up your hips a bit and buy you more comfort at the same or similar drop (ie, wouldn't have to go up to 6cm).
I prefer to go with a level stem and then manipulate drop by moving spacers around. The reason is because I can do this on the fly on the road very easily: bust out the 4mm allen, loosen a couple bolts, left bars/stem off the steer tube, swap out spacers, tighten bolts done. A little more PITA to have to flip a stem also. I'm talking about adjustments you would make on the street corner, bike leaned against a post or something.
-17 degree stems are not hard to find and they are cheap. Weight is meaningless for practical purposes. If you move up (by putting more spacers in) with a fixed stem, you obviously also move the bars and everything in closer to you a little. You may find that you can adjust your comfort substantially by adjusting the length of your stem and making very small adjustments to the angle of your bars (and thus pads). If the problem with your large-drop fit is closing of your hip angle (and thus breathing and also how high you have to raise your knees), that's one thing (and may be alleviated by moving your saddle forward), but if it's just a matter of finding a comfortable position to support your weight without a lot of muscular work, you can look at other small adjustments to the cockpit with the stem and angle.
Just for some additional information regarding my fit:
-I'm fairly flexible for a male already, but I think the advice to become more flexible is great. As an engineer I often overlook the obvious, and I was re flexability!
-I'm 5'10 riding a 54cm P3
-Saddle height is 74.5, 78 degrees, 78 cm from saddle tip to aerobar tip
-I originally set my drop using Dan Empfield's formual http://www.slowtwitch.com/Bike_Fit/F.I.S.T._Tri_bike_fit_system/Armrest_drop_25.html as a start
- This resulted in a drop estimate of 13.41 cm +- 1.5cm for a pro, or around 12 +- 1.5cm for an AG athlete.
-14cm was not uncomfortable and had me at a 100 degree hip angle. I ride 165 cranks which help me stay that open at that drop
-I was going to the fitter to "be sure" I had everything right. There wasn't necessarily a problem.
The fitter is a very well respected bike shop in the Chicago area. I had to drive about 3 hours and take a day off work to do it. He knew I was doing my first IM this year. He probably was going to error on the side of more comfort, less aero. When he made the drop -6.5 I objected saying that I was going to loose alot of aerodynamics there! His reply was that the difference was minimal at best and comfort was more important. I don't disagree, but I wasn't really uncomfortable to begin with! This was pretty much the only change he made to my previous fit, which was done by me using ST website stuff.
-6.5 was just way too high though, so I went back to 11 which I was thinking I'd keep for long course, perhaps going back to that 14cm drop for 20k and 40k races. So, that lead to my original question. If I could achive that 11cm drop with a +6 stem and no spacers, is that better or worse than a -6 stem with 4cm of spacers.
I *think* I'll use the -6 option and the 4 spacers because, as Rich said, that makes it very easy to go from -11 to -14. The other part is that I don't really want to cut my fork shorter than it currently is, for the sake or resale value. So if I leave the spacers, I'm not sure that they're any better above the stem than below.
I've gone the other direction, though, riding my saddle as high and forward as is reasonable, and going to a larger drop, in the neighborhood of 14-15 cm. (Everybody's body and humerus length and all are different, but the point is "big drop" not "small drop".) If I were starting over with cranks, I might buy the shorter ones like you ahve. as well, but I've got the "standard" compact cranks that are 172.5...that's added insurance that the hip angle is less of a constraint.
The major "comfort" issue for me is visibility. With a big drop fit like this, looking up and the field of vision is necessarily limited. In a few weeks of outdoor riding, I know I'll train up my neck and back to be ok, which are always sore from the first few outdoor rides. But the bottom line for "real" comfort for me are the contact points, i.e., getting the saddle right, and getting the cockpit right so I'm not holding myself up with muscles so much as with skeleton.
I'm not saying your Chicago guy was wrong, but if you are able to ride 3 hours in the low position, why not six?
I'm definately not sure he's right either. I'm leaving the guy's name out of this because I've seen at least one other person here that is associated with this shop and don't really want to cause them any problems. I think they're doing the best they know to do, but in the end with a bike fit you're paying for someone's opinion. Also, in the end it's my bike and I'm free to take that opinon or not.
That said, I'm not completely confident in his abilities over my own...and mine are much less expensive so I likely will continue to do my own tweaking...
Also, I agree, if I were the fitter in this case, I'd have tried a more forward seat as well if I saw an issue with the drop i was riding. I asked about that. His opinion was that seat angles greater than 78 lead to bad peddling technique as it caused the rider to "kick" back after the bottom dead spot. I have no idea if this is true, or if that even matters though. There sure are plenty of folks that ride a 80+ degree saddle angle though.
VERY interesting conversation here. Thank you everyone for your thoughts.
I will share I had a similiar experience. I set myself up following FIST and rode very steep (like 82). This worked great for me but I went in for a fit and it was suggested that I move my saddle back (about 2 cm) and bars up a little (about 1 cm). So my changes seem to be less drastic than yours but along the same lines.
The result was I was able to put more power out and I saw an FTP increase pretty quickly after and was able to tolerate more time at FTP in the aerobars. I don't think my drag was affected much at all as I was actually putting out better bike splits as well. The issue however was my run splits started to suffer which could have been other issues as well, but I don't think the closed hip angle helped things. Unfortunately, too many changes within the same time period so I can't come to a conclusion but just have some theories.
I guess the point I'm trying to get to in my rambling is ... I think the fitter was correct and the changes he made would make me a faster TT rider, but I think the closed hip angle impacted my run ability.
Since then I have slowly made minor adjustments and I have naturally settled closer to the position I was in before (but not fully there). So far it appears that this middle ground solution between the two may be the best place for me but races this year will tell.
I'm pretty familiar with and have seen a number of fitters in Chicago ... if you want to PM me details we can exchange notes privately ;-)
As far as your spacer question... to me 4cm is the limit. If you are under that put the stem anyway you want (I always prefer down and -17). I personally would not go over 4 cm of spacers and would flip a stem up before putting more than 4 spacers.