The Kick in Triathlon Swimming
In my opinion, the best kick for a triathlete to have is one which does no harm. You want an "effective kick," which, for athletes often swimming 1-5x longer (time-wise) than the longest competitive swimming event (1500m) means it's a tool to
Get your feet up at the surface of the water
Keep your feet inside of the tube your body makes in the water. Ie, you don't have a leg swinging out all crazy every other stoke, getting outside of that tube and creating a lot of drag.
It's not a tool to increase propulsion, helping you go _that_ way. See bike and run to come after the swim :-)
As you're a runner, I betting that you have very inflexible ankles = not only an ineffective kick but you're toes are likely pointed down at the bottom of the pool acting as boat anchors. I've seen this with a LOT of runners.
In my opinion, the swim leg of a triathlon should basically be a pulling event: legs only doing enough to help/do no harm to body position, not being used as another propulsion tool. The pull is a much better tool for that job and your arms are done working for the day when you exit T2.
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As a triathlon coach coaching triathletes, 95% of whom are not former competitive swimmers, are swimming 2100-4200yds in a race (much, much farther than your typical competitive swimming event) in a wetsuit that adds a lot of buoyancy to their legs and who have to bike and run a long distance after their swim, my opinion is that the kick should be viewed as an aid to body position and balance first, propulsion a very, very distant second.
My own example:
I'm a former distance swimmer but have an characteristically fast kick (for a distance swimmer). I use a "trailing" 6-beat kick -- my rhythm is a six beat kick but there's really not any oomph to it. My feet are just flopping around but they are at the surface of the water and stay inside the tube of my body. I have a powerful kick when I need it (back in the day I could pop off a sub 1:10 100yd kick) but I don't see a need for it in triathlon swimming. I'm not racing someone to the beach and I'm happy to get behind you and have you kick your ass off and drag me in for the last 500m. Knock yourself out.
In fact, I pretty much pull exclusively, in training and racing -- I'll work hard for the first 400m, swimming like a real swimmer...then I shut off my kick, find some feet and just pull for the remainder of the distance. 200m out I'll start kicking again to wake them up, etc for the run to T1.
What I've been telling people at swim clinics for years is that ideally you want to be in a technique place where you can shut your legs off after the first 400m, using them only as a aid to balance and body position, and basically pull the entire race distance...or at least kick with nothing behind it...using the wetsuit as a body pull buoy to help you with position.
Going back to the OP -- as I runner I'd be willing bet your paycheck that you have very inflexible ankles and that your toes are pointed down at the bottom, or at least not backwards and out of the way. This is huge and something I've seen for years at clinics. To get a feel for how much drag this creates, toss on a pull buoy and swim a hundred with your toes point to the rear and a 100 with your toes pointed at the bottom of the pool.
My double top secret retirement scheme is to create an Inquisition-esque ankle stretching device, call it the Carbon Aero Ankle Stretcher and market it to triathletes...or you could just sit on your tops of your feet while watching TV, stretching your ankles :-)
Comments
Thanks Coach Rich,
Given that the swim leg of a triathlon should basically be a pulling event, I have a follow-up question. I have viewed pull bouys as more of a toy. Do pull bouys have any value in training?
@Dusty: if the kick is working for you, it works. In my experience, once you learn a "cadence," 2 beat, 4, etc, it's very, very difficult to change it and not screw up your stroke.
Bottomline, for triathlon swimming and the kick, is if it's doing no hard, is out of the way and is helping your body position and balance...that's good enough. Don't try to develop a stronger, more propulsive kick. Just not worth it. Ideally, where you want to be is able to swim with a wetsuit, almost completely turn off your legs and still maintain good, balanced swim form.
I've decided to cheat a little this year on my swimming workouts. Gonna do a ton of my sets with fins, partly to build some kick strength and mostly to work on that ankle flexibility. I plan on using fins even to help with position in water, when the focus may be on the pull I'll be working alot on my pull with paddle drills and fist drills. Gonna keep your post in mind as I focus on position, pull, balance.
and I'll be sitting on feet while I watch TV.
this sound ok to the coach?
Paddles:
I'm not big on triathletes and learned-to-swim-as-adults swimmers using paddles. I think it's another symptom of the gear-queer mentality of triathletes: buying any tools you think you need vs learning the basics first and asking advice from smart people
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Paddles are made for guys like (the old, young, competitive swimmer) me: back in the day, the ability to put power to the water (vs technique, which was good) was an actual limiter. So paddles were invented as a form of very sport-specific resistance training. Paddles came in bigger and bigger sizes (more resistance). Then we'd add a wheelbarrow wheel innertube twisted around our ankles (more drag), then a drag suit (even more drag).
However, we had the technique first and, more importantly, years and years of swimming mileage in our shoulders = more able to handle the strain that paddles put on your shoulders = much lower risk of becoming injured.
Triathletes:
For triathletes, paddles are a good tool to help you learn proper catch and pulling technique. The much greater surface area provides with a LOT of feedback on the effectiveness of your pull.
me...brown belt
btw, I tried the paddles + inner tubed ankles (8x25s up to 12x25s). didn't work out to well, unless I'm a sea horse.
Without going too deep on the subject, I agree for the most part with what has been said. Few things though to consider:
1. If you don't have a kick, there is nothing to "turn on" and certainly it is "off already". Training the kick is needed, even for triathletes, however with much different intent and structure. One can take a message from coaches post that there is no need for kick sets, sure there is.
2. There is so much to be done without ever putting a paddle on your hands. However if one insists on paddle work, and only for promoting a proper catch technique, I warmly recommend the smallest Strokemaker paddle the will fit on the hand and no wrist band, only middle finger. Only Rec and EN1 type work and in very small amounts early in the practice, leave it alone later, when shoulders are tired, it is best not to use it unless you are seasoned veteran with strong and injury free history.
If the message was do not kick in training, ie kick sets, I disagree respectfully with that. Everything else makes sense only for a mediocre triathlete/swimmer. For fishes/ triathletes, this is not common wisdom. Kick is a weapon used smartly. Train it smartly.
Rich's tip on sitting on my feet at night has helped a ton and I have more flexibility then ever (but still not enough or a good kick). I can hang with the ex-swimmers in the second fastest lane at masters on long free sets, but when it comes to kicking I can litterally be lapped in a long set.
I know what kind of kick training doesn't work for me as a masters coach had me do sprint kick sets with fins to try and "strech" things out and ended up giving me tendonitis of the extensor digatorium longus (sp?) and two months off running.
@Rich and Aleksandar - what would you recomend for good kick training for a triathlete? I understand it is a very small peice of the puzzle and probably doesn't make sense for most triathletes, but I think I can benefit from it.
@Matt: aside from pride, why do you care? Triathletes train to swim freestyle in open water for 1500-3800 meters. If you can keep up with the swimmers when doing long freestyle sets, aren't you getting what you need?
Ah, I have to respectfully disagree with this. I actually believe the opposite - kick-specific training might be useful for a noobie to gain form and muscle memory, but otherwise there is little-to-no ROI on kick sets for triathletes. And maybe I should be even more specific and say, for triathletes competing in open water. As a sprinter-turned-distance swimmer, I can say that I now get zero value from kick sets. I used to kick ass with a kickboard and now I suck water. So what? Why exhaust a muscle group that's already being worked 5+ times/week by biking and running when you're not really going to use it in the race? I'm totally comfortable accepting that swim training for triathletes is - for many of us - a dumbed down version of "true" competitive swim training.
If you're a pool competitor, then you need kick sets - even distance swimmers need to activate their kick to get in and out of turns. For triathletes in open water, the kick exists to maintain body position and nothing more.
But as you said, pride is a big part of it as well. Rich got me not to look like such a fred on the bike and now I'm working on not looking like such a triathlete at the pool. I did a swim meet, I can start of the blocks, I usually don't wear a watch, I wear swedish goggles now... still no speedo though! I would like to not be lapped on a kick set and also not look like a fool doing butterfly.
Maybe there isn't much to be gained here for me, but just feel like it is worth trying. While it may not be the best ROI, I'm currious what others who understand triathlon swimming think I could do if I wanted to improve me kick so it is optimized for a very competive non-wetsuit triathlon.
@Michael, it seems that study you brought up never made it to the swimming world. I don't need to go too deep on that. Look up any club, high school or college swim program, any distance any stroke. Those coaches did not get that memo.
@Suzanne, I did not advocate in my post for MOP triathlete/ late in life swimmer to spend huge amount of time developing a "real competitive swimmer's kick", that train has left the station, it requires much like run focus type work. I agree low ROI there. And I also understand that you may not like the kick sets, I don not either. That does not mean, triathlete should not include them in training. Not nearly to any extent as swimmers do, but some work should be done and triathlon coaches do prescribe those to their athletes. It is very easy to look those up and get an idea what it is.
For those that have the kick, it is a weapon even in triathlon. FOP swimmers use it to position during the start for the first turn. It is also used during the bridging between groups......Those that have it, they use it.
Those that are racing from the front, top AGers and Pros, should not give time anywhere to anyone. If it takes working on the kick, than so be it, but it could be very, very low on the list of priorities. Those athletes better be excellent cyclist and runners with very little weaknesses there.
I understood, Matt was seeking "swimmers" type training advice, maybe not necessary in the context of triathlon, personal sub objective to accomplish for self satisfaction reasons. I can perfectly relate to that as I wanted to finally swim IM and fly effectively and drop those "real swimmers" doing their sets. It can be fun, not necessary accomplishing triathlon goal.
We mostly agree here, not much disagreement at all. And I clearly understand that I may not be the EN norm. All the advice here that came from the Coach is very correct. Will I get into an argument over this, sure no.
Will I quote studies, pages from swim coaching manuals, etc, no. It is out there, well written. The world of swimming uses it. Not all applies to us in triathlon.
I enjoy this thread very much. It can get very informative to our members.
I remember my USS, high school and college coaches assigning kick sets at most every practice. I hated it then, mostly because I was one of, if not the slowest kicker on the team (the anti-Rich if you will). If you intend to make the "A" final at Senior Nataionals, the NCAA's, or Olympic Trials, you need a strong kick, especially at the middle and sprint distances. But you don't need that strong kick to swim successfully in high school and Division I college programs (outside of Stanford, Texas, Michigan), even in kick-heavy events.
I have no doubt that if you were seeking to maximize your swimming ability, and had 25-30 hours a week to swim, kicking is an important part and you can include workouts focused on kicking. If, on the other hand, you only have 3-4 hours a week to swim and you have to bike and run too, kicking becomes less important.
@Michael, I knew we agreed. I totally agree with your post above.
My .02. If you thinking learning to swim is hard, try learning to kick like a swimmer. Almost impossible. The kick is an important part of your swimming rhythm (timing rotation), but not of propulsion. What Rich keeps saying is that you need to figure out how to get your body into the most dynamic position possible FIRST, then worry about doing anything like kicking to make it faster. IOW a good kick is like an aerohelmet...nice to have but you don't need to use it every single day.
Being able to shut off your legs when swimming means that you have achieved two things: proper body position and a relatively good amount of momentum in the water.
1. Body position means that you are pushing your chest and head into the water such that your hips are naturally close to the surface. Most beginner swimmers can get this sensation, ironically, by doing the "switch" drill of TI where you are on your side kicking with one arm extended. Lean on that armpit / point that arm downwards towards 4/4.5/5 o'clock until your hip with the hand resting on top of it pops up to the surface.
2. Once you know what that feels like, you can work on keeping that downward pressure on the water as you rotate from side to side. This is where a pull buoy helps as you can ignore the legs and just focus on the feeling of maintaining continuous downward pressure. Think of as though you were laying chest down on top of one of those massive Swiss Balls...with your feet on your sofa. Now rotate right...then back through center...all the way to the left....feel that pressure and contact on the ball. Rotate through from side to side and that easy-to-start-a-catch position that we outline in the swim ebook (think shoulder touching chin, looking out over your arm).
3. Once you can do that, you can move to regular swimming and seeking Momentum. In this case your stroke must be frequent/effective enough to keep your well-positioned body from slowing down such that your hips become a drag factor. Again, you are maintaining that downward pressure, only now you are doing it without the buoy. In this case learning how to maximize your stroke is important...but as Rich noted paddles aren't the greatest tool as it's tempting to abuse them. I prefer doing 25 fist drill / 50 free. If you take away your palms and aren't going anywhere, then you over-use your hands and aren't using your forearms to generate propulsion.
Hope all this helps...
Who doesn't like on of those?! It's not like we're fighting over whether zero is a number or not... but that would be a good discussion for another thread...
Anyway, not to take too much away from what has been said above by probably wiser dude(ette)s than me, but a few months ago I got roped into on-deck coaching for my local masters team. One thing I've noticed with both the novice swimmers and triathletes in general is that (as I think we all agree) their kicking isn't all it can be.
I'm going to disagee and say that think kick set are very important for triathletes, not for helping you go faster (it probalby won't) or hold up your legs (that is why we have wet suit for 90% of our races), but it does a lot of other things to help your stroke. More importantly, worse than not kicking well, if you don't practice you're going to kick pooly. That starts off a whole cascade of things that destroys the rest of the stroke. This is why we should be including more kicking sets--so that we don't kick badly!!
If you just stand on the deck and watch for a bit you'll see the weaker swimmers usually have this tremendous wiggle in their stroke. A lot of that can be corrected (or at least reduced) with better kicking. It is not the kick per-say they need to fix, but by putting their bodies in a better position for kicking, a lot of the other parts of their stoke gets better. Core/spine in-line, not crossing the center line while taking a stroke, keeping the ankles closer together, avoiding that massive scissor kick during a breath... the list of benefits of training with a steady flutter kick are huge.
So, while I agree that kicking sets per-say aren't going to make you a faster swimmer, they are probably going to make you a better swimmer. That is, I think, a big part of what we want to get out of our swimming. Kicking sets help to train the leg/calf/feet muscles to the 'right thing' and not slow us down in the water while we are busy being worried about getting punched in the arm by the racer next to us for 2.4 miles... that is why we should be doing kicking sets.
I'm gonna jump into this discussion (pun intended). First, my bias: lifelong swimmer since age 10, confirmed pull bouy user since age 25, abysmal freestyle kicker, probably due to long achiles tendon developed by swimming breaststroke so much as a kid, then skiing as a teen. When I try to point my toe, it goes down to about 45 deg above the horizontal. That's not from running, cause I didn't start that until age 50, but may be why I am a good runner?
Anyway, should we practice kicking? Yes. Should we do kicking sets? Yes, BUT NOT WITH A KICKBOARD!!! The main purpose of kicking for us is to enhance proper body position by (a) keeping the legs horizontal and (b) easing proper longitudinal rotation. With a kickboard, the shoulders and arms are higher than when swimming, and the body does not rotate. How is that training good body position and motion???
Coach P (of course) is right 100% about doing side kicking drills while driving the arm downward - that gets to both issues. Even better drill is adding in some arm motion ("pulls") by breathing on each stroke (Pull with right arm, breath to right, rotate back to left, breath on left, etc.) very slowly as a drill, not for speed, but for form and learning to hold the horizontal while moving very slowly.
For me, who can actually GO BACKWARDS while kicking with a kickboard, I have adopted two other means to enable me to practice kicking. (1) For my warm up, I wear a DeSoto Speed Tube, which is a 3/4 length legs-only 5 mm wet suit. Simulates wearing a wet suit without cheating too much or getting too hot in the 82 F pool, and (2) using Zoomer fins while doing drills, so I can still move forward while trying to go slow doing drills.
I was with Terry Laughlin, founder of TI this past Saturday at the Multisport Expo and asked about kick sets. He did not think they held a lot of value for long didtance swimmers.
He did recommend if you did want to do some kick training to do some verticle kicking in deep water with a 1/4 turn every so many kicks to work on your body rotation.
As Rich stated he felt the legs should just go along for the ride when doing long distances.
http://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Swimming/Kicking_is_not_only_for_propulsion_1937.html
I found that article excellent. Furthermore, when you put that in perspective with the trend of "lowering the stroke count" (very popular trend much like forefoot running) than you get a very clear message and one that is spot on.
I'll comment again on pull buoys. Lots of folks have bad position with butt and legs dragging low in the water. I can understand using a pull buoy to help in understanding what correct body position feels like. However, using a pull buoy does not train you to get proper body positioning without the pull buoy. Too much pull buoy use not a good crutch ??? Folks need to work more on getting heads and chest down into the water and using a not so propulsive kick to maintain body positioning ???
[On another note, I am finally getting around to some lessons to fix these problems. I'm going to be a body position Ninja soon.... :-) ]
I find a pull buoy useful in that it lets me practice my stroke in good position - more like what it is like with the wet suit on. When I have it going well, my stroke just purrs, and that's really useful for me to feel regularly. But of course, now that I'm being a good boy and working on my body position, this will happen all the time soon. :-)
Anyway, another paddle recommendation I'd make - all kidding aside. It's here: http://www.finisinc.com/s.nl/c.1144330/it.A/id.62/.f
The Finis freestyle paddle is very small relative to most, so it's not a huge shoulder-ripping monstrosity and it won't slow your stroke down ridiculously. It has ONLY a middle finger strap, which if you wear it loosely, forces you to have a reasonably straight catch/pull/exit path (if you don't cheat with thumb/pinkie). It also as a keel, so if you try to wobble a lot or go side to side, it'll either go off your hand or at least force you to fight with it...in other words, it pretty much rewards you for doing things at least mostly right with your hands. I use it 75% or more just in my warmup to get me doing my stroke right like a drill. When I occasionally feel like doing a regular set with paddles, I use them anyway, instead of more traditional big ones.