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Bonking on the bike???

Question for you smart folks.  I am new to EN and was a member of the November Outseason.  My race plans this year start the season with the White Lake Half Iron on 5/7/11.  I dropped into the 12 week schedule  on the second week and have been hitting the numbers fairly well.  My question for you guys regards nutrition on the bike.  I know that the goal is 250 calories per hour but the first weekend (about a month ago) I tried this for my nutrition and around mile 40 was bonking really bad.  No energy, extremely lightheaded and slightly dizzy.  I have been trying to dial up the calories at a rate of 50/hour each weekend on the long ride but I am still getting the same symptoms.  Couple key facts for you:

  • I am a big guy, 6'4" and 240 pounds - weight weenie doesn't even enter my thought process.
  • According to my garmin I am burning about 1,000 calories an hour on average
  • This past weekend I was up to almost 400/hour and still had the same problem. 
  • I am using the Infinit Ride formula though I am now carrying some e-gels as back up (150 calories each)
  • I am thinking of carrying some powerbars too because in my past riding when I eat a powerbar then I haven't had the same problem.

My questions are:

  1. How long does it take to dial in your race day nutrition needs?
  2. Given my caloric burn rate is 250/hour reasonable?
  3. How accurate is the calorie burn rate from the Garm?
  4. Does it take longer to go from a solids nutrition such as powerbars to a fluid nutrition strategy?  I really like the Infinit but if I take 400/hour or more calories then I am going to be challenged to carry enough nutrition for IMFL this fall.

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

dusty

 

Comments

  • Dusty-

    1. If you haven't trained near 250 cals/hr before you need to ease yourself into it, i.e. # cals you were before and dialing it back each week. The long rides on the weekends are great for this.

    2. It's pretty individual you'll want to go by how you feel vs. what you "should" take in. Though too much is really going to weigh you down on the run.

    3. No idea re: the garmin, though I think there were some discussions in the nutrition forum talking about the calorie burn average (sorry can't seem to search right now).

    4. I found it really easy to switch to all liquid once I was taking in protein on the bike I never felt full. Are you concentrating the Infinit? I know they say that you can only concentrate it so much, but I've done it almost double what they suggest so that I could have all my IM fuel on the bike then I just took a little Infinit with a couple gulps of water. I'd imagine that even if you needed to really increase the cals you could super-concentrate and have another super-concentrated bottle in Special Needs to refill for the second half.
  • What is your sodium intake? THAT is my guess as to the problem.

    As far as taking in calories, you could probably eat 1000/HR if you really wanted to, but, it really doesn't matter because you can't process that amount. What is important is how many you can really utilize, NOT how many you cannot into your system. Also, you might try getting some plain water into your system too, without nutrition in it...maybe have a feed bottle and a regular water bottle.

    The goal/recommendations are, for a HIM:
    1.5 bottles of H2O
    500-1000 mg sodium (electrolytes)
    250ish kcal

    Based on your comments...maybe try powerbars for kcal, then water and electrolyte tabs. Might be cleaner, easier, and more effective for you...

    Just thinking out loud here.

    If you are feeling light headed, you might try inching up towards that higher level of sodium and see what that does for you.
  • Dusty,

    There are those of out there that don't fit into the standard nutritional profile. You're a big unit burning loads of calories; trust in your experience! I tried over and over to adhere to the 250cal/hr max rule, even in an IM; it isn't enough for me; I bonked hard! I burn best at 400 cal/hour, proven over and over. Now mind you, there is a limit; at 550cal/hr, I'm curled up at the side of the road in gastric agony.
  • Dusty - I am brand new to EN but saw your post this morning and have been thinking about it all day.  I hope my experience might help you a little.  I have completed 3 IM and 5 HIM and I had major vomiting issues all all but the last 2 HIM and last IM.  So this doesn't qualify me as an expert in nutrition, but I wanted to say that it took me 3 years to figure it out.  What works for me changes as I train and race and I was getting very frustrated.  I wish I had somebody to tell me what to do, but every one I asked had a different opinion and I didn't have EN.  So I almost quit triathlon completely because I was so scared of the bonk at some point in every race.

    I am a little smaller than you at 215, but I only reached that weight last year when I began really focusing on my nutrition.  I am a recovering binge eater and consistant beer drinker, and at my heaviest was over 285 a few years ago.  I still consider myself a big man and need to pay attention to my nutrition on the bike and run very carefully because I sweat alot and burn alot of calories.  So I have raced at your weight and know how that feels to be hungry and dizzy and have no energy to continue.  On my training rides, I was able to eat or drink anything, but the extra stress of the event caused everything to change and I just couldn't keep anything down.  I tried everything, or so I thought.

    I was successful only after I figured out that I couldn't take in more than about 300-400 calories on the bike and 200 on the run per hour.  This was against everything that I thought.  I figured out that sugar was my enemy.  What I have learned is that is slows the absorbtion of the other good things you take in.  In my case, it caused my body to reject everything I took in.  Everything I was trying had sugar and when I tried Hammer products I did much better.  So I switched to Hammer's Sustained Energy and Gels and Salt Stick Tabs exclusively all last season and finished all my races without an issue.  Now I am curious about Infinit because of all the forum chatter, but I am scared about it because it has sugar.  I may try a sample on a training ride to see, but I will probably stay with what worked.

    I also noticed that I desperately craved something solid before the race and at the beginning of the bike leg.  So I eat the exact same breakfast 2-3 hours before the race start as I eat before any long training day and I chopped up a Cliff Bar (no sugar) into small chunks and kept them in a ziplock in my jersey.  I was able to pull a chunk and chew on it till it dissolves and that satisfied my need for substance.  I started carefully practicing on my training rides exactly what I planned to do in the race and I kept written logs of everything.  I even noted the effects of different flavors and tried caffinated vs non.  My schedule is every 10 minutes, I am putting something in my mouth.  I alternate sips between a bottle of sustained energy and a bottle of water and take a salt stick tab and gel at 10-20 min intervals.  I don't even consume the whole gel at once, just half or a little squeeze so that I space out and mix everything up well in my belly as I ride.  I keep absorbing little amounts of something the entire day and I scaled back on the water so that I didn't dilute the electrolites.  That is on the bike.  On the run, I only take in a 1/2 Gel every other mile and a small sip of water at every aid station.  That may not be enough, but my belly gets sloshy during the run so I am usually dehydrating at the end of the race.

    All this to say that I know it seems complicated, but I have practiced it and it works for me.  Your body can only absorb so many calories.  You will be working in a calorie deficit the whole day and you have to manage that.  Plus, when your body is sending blood to the muscles, you can not digest food.  The stomach is one of the first things to shut down when your fighting for power on the bike or run.  I think the forum guidelines are right on and I wish I had the advice when I started because it would have saved me a lot of miserable feelings of failure.  Even though I finished, I never finished as well as I had trained because of the nutrition.  Now that I dialed it in, I am looking forward and working specifically on getting faster, but with every workout I am still constantly practicing my nutrition intake both before, during and after.  I have had to accept that I have a balleria belly in a beer drinking body.

    I wish I had simple advice, and hope that my experience helped.  More than anything, I wanted to encourage you to keep practicing and trying and not get frustrated.  You will find what works and then stick with it and enjoy the ride.  Good Luck, Chap.

  • PS - Noticed that you signed up for Augusta - I'll be there and will look forward to meeting you...Chap.
  • @Chap: nice work getting yourself sorted out nutritionally. Another thing to consider: most athletes booger up their races by going out too hard on the bike; the difficulties often don't show up until the run, and then as an upset belly. Following EN pacing guidelines to the letter will fix this fundamental error and really ease up the pressure on your gut.

    BTW: that "ballerina belly in a beer drinking body" quote is priceless!
  • Dusty have you called Infinit? They do phone consultations and maybe they can work with you on solving this issue.
    And the Garmin calorie calculators are way off. If you have a power meter use the KJ as a pretty good estimate of what you are burning.
    Good luck and I hope you get it all sorted out.
  • @Bill - Thanks man, it took me awhile, mainly because I am stubborn and pig headed.  You are right on the pacing, I have started to study EN Pacing Guidelines to map out some race goals.  Looking back, that is something I forgot to mention, I remember the chant in my head (because I talk to myself) "its all about the run go easy its all about the run" over and over and over...it worked and that is a big part of it.

     @Dusty - not to monopolize your thread but specific answers...1 - hopefully not as long as me. 2 - yes. 3 - don't trust the Garmin for anything except speed and distance and HR. It is not likely that you are at 1,000/hr. 4 - it doesn't have too take long you just have to decide to try, I was afraid of it but will always go only liguid as previously described.  As far as IMFL you can definately carry enough without hitting the special needs bag.  I did that race last fall and I hope you have a great time.  I loved that race and I am going back next year.  I plan to volunteer and spectate this year.

  • Thank you all for your help and input. It really underscores the value of the EN community to get this much feedback and help especially as a noob!

    @Jennifer - I just tried a concentrated Infinit bottle this past weekend. I'll try again on my RR ride on Saturday with the goal of hitting 400 calories per hour. I'm going to take a powerbar on the ride as well just in case...

    @Stephen - I haven't paid a lot of attention to sodium before now. I just got some of the S-Caps based on information I saw here in the Haus so I am going to try a very disciplined approach this weekend of 1 per hour to see how that effects me.

    @Bill - Thanks. I am going to do my best to avoid the side of the road. It is going to be interesting to see how my body responds, especially as the weather heats up.

    @Chap - I really appreciate your long and thoughtful reply. It is great to know that others like me have been down this road before and figured out the right solution for them. As a big guy it is funny to see the looks on peoples faces when they find out that I love to train and race triathlons. I just don't fit the standard profile of the triathlete. I am going to try several of your ideas this weekends ride. Specifically a more constant stream of nutrition (I think I have been taking in nutrition all at once on a 45-60 minute schedule). I'm really looking forward to getting this figured out. I have to admit that it appeals to the neurotic type "A" personality in me to dial this in and use a systematized approach to figuring out my personal nutrition needs. I'll look forward to meeting you in Augusta! (that is if my now pregnant wife goes along with that plan, her due date is 9/23 - if the baby comes early her mom will be here and I'll be at the race, if the rascal is like our daughter and comes a week late all bets are off.... :-)

    @Tucker - I haven't done a phone consultation with Infinit yet. I just got their products during their "50% off sale" in February so I am using the standard formula to start out. I think after this weekend I am going to give them a call. Right now I don't know enough about my nutritional needs to feel like I could give them very good information.

    @All - Looks like I need to spend some more time in the wiki this week studying up. Thanks again for everyone's feedback and information! Time to go get on the bike!





  • Dusty- If you haven't done the sweat test make sure you do, especially in the heat. And pay attention to how salty you get as well. Both will help with your nutrition and dialing in the sodium intake.
  • Posted By Dusty Holcomb on 21 Mar 2011 06:40 PM

    My questions are:

    1. How long does it take to dial in your race day nutrition needs?
    2. Given my caloric burn rate is 250/hour reasonable?
    3. How accurate is the calorie burn rate from the Garm?
    4. Does it take longer to go from a solids nutrition such as powerbars to a fluid nutrition strategy?  I really like the Infinit but if I take 400/hour or more calories then I am going to be challenged to carry enough nutrition for IMFL this fall.

     

    Hi Dusty:

    Great responses so far. Just to add my $0.02.

    1) How long it takes depends on you and how aggressive you are with it. Tinker, see how it works, take notes, tinker, repeat.

    2) Some people can take up to 90g of carbs/hour (360 cals/hour) as long as you are getting the carbs from multiple sources (glucose and fructose). You have to see what your body can take and still perform.

    3) I find the calorie burn rate to compare favorably with METs calculations. I think it is pretty accurate.

    4) I know people who have done the transition in a day. In order to carry that much nutrition, you will probably need to go to concentrated bottles and have more in your special needs bag. Practice using those concentrated bottles so you don't end up doubled-up on the side of the road or spending time in a field relieving GI issues.

    Good luck and keep us posted!

  • Dusty, x2 on the sodium intake comment...I'm wondering if this isn't a calorie issue but a sodium and water intake issue. Recommend adding this to something you are tracking as you dial in your nutrition. Light headed, dizziness is often linked to electrolyte/sodium imbalance. Wiki guidance for sodium is 500mg/hour which is the same baseline as the 250cal/hour. Some need more some need less. You didn't mention it but what's your "pee" situation...how oftern? what color?
    also recommend reading everything in the Wiki under nutrition. Some great stuff on race day nutrition and hydration this might trigger something that your missing.
    good luck.
  • Posted By Chap Dinkins on 22 Mar 2011 05:35 PM

    I was successful only after I figured out that I couldn't take in more than about 300-400 calories on the bike and 200 on the run per hour.  This was against everything that I thought.  I figured out that sugar was my enemy.  What I have learned is that is slows the absorbtion of the other good things you take in.  In my case, it caused my body to reject everything I took in.  Everything I was trying had sugar and when I tried Hammer products I did much better.  So I switched to Hammer's Sustained Energy and Gels and Salt Stick Tabs exclusively all last season and finished all my races without an issue.  Now I am curious about Infinit because of all the forum chatter, but I am scared about it because it has sugar.  I may try a sample on a training ride to see, but I will probably stay with what worked.

     

    Hi Chap: I just wanted to clarify. Your body NEEDS sugar during training and racing. That is the primary fuel source (along with fat) during endurance and ultra-endurance activities. Your body turns all sugars into glucose and glycogen (storage form in the muscles). What you may have been experiencing is that your body likes some forms of sugar better than others. Some people have problems with fructose for example. The key is to find the fuel that works for you!

    Infinit uses Maltodextrin, Dextrose, and Sucrose. Hammer Sustained Energy uses  Maltodextrin, Corn Syrup Solids. You can compare what you were using before to the sources of carbs in Infinit and see what you think.

  • @Penny - thanks for explaining that, I was wondering if you were going to help out on this one. I am still learning the chemistry and understand that my body does turn the sugar into energy. I just wish that I could get my body to burn off all the extra fat that is attached to me. I am going to try the Infinit and see how that goes. Funny how sensitive my belly is to certain things and I think it is the fructose and try to stay away from that. But I also notice that it is only in a few things and that it gets to me and then not in others. I also noticed that training efforts and weather/heat have a big swing in effect and so it is always something I have to pay close attention to. The biggest thing that helps the most is the extra salt and and taking in small bits constantly. I always appreciate your post, I am learning a lot from you. Thanks, Chap.

    @Dusty - I hope you make the race in Augusta, but congrats on your baby, dude that is cool!
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