Underperforming run at the HIM distance
I was having a look at the HIM pacing wiki material last night (getting ready for this weekend's RR workouts). I was puzzled by how well I do at the IM run and how poorly I do at the HIM run. What gives? Given my vdot of around 43 my "best possible" IM run should be 4:11. Instead, I've run 4:03 and 4:02 at the last two IM races I've done. Yet, with that same vdot, my "best possible" HIM run should be 1:48. I can barely run that as a stand alone half marathon!! My HIM runs are generally in the 2:00 range. Maybe I might manage something around 1:58.
So what gives? What should I be doing to improve that HIM run? And just to say, my HIM bike is no prize either! It's not like I am smoking myself on the bike. Any suggestions or insight are welcome!
Thanks!
---Ann.
Comments
That does sound kinda strange, my two thoughts right away are maybe you are not fueling right for the HIM and maybe you are not rested enough for the HIM.
Curious to what others have to say.
First off, I don't find this strange at all. They are many people who perform much better on the IM run than the HIM run. However, in order to be sure there isn't something related to bike execution we'd have to see some data. We'd need good solid proof of a well-established FTP and power data from your races. Without this kind of data we'd just be speculating.
Thanks, Chris
Ann - never one to shy from speculatin', I suspect you are much more comfortable (in your head) with running at an easy pace, and aren't really enamoured with high intensity training or racing 5Ks. You are racing to your strengths, there's nothing wrong with that. If you do want to get faster at "shorter" races, it will probably require a different orientation to effort in training, as much as good attention to pacing in the race itself.
Have to say I love all the data around this place. That's what leads to my speculatin', Al! :-)
Thanks all!
---Ann.
Sorry, I would have to disagree with Al on this one. There's relatively little difference between the training requirements between HIM and IM. The differences as they pertain to this specific issue are actually insignificant in my experience. You really don't need to train and race that differently. Yes, the intensity of your HIM racing is certainly higher but the difference in training is probably something like the following:
- Add about 2 - 3hrs to your long bike
- Add about 1hr to your long run
Everything else can be the same (unless you're an elite-level athlete).
This is similar to how many people think sprint tris are anaerobic. Obviously, they're not. It's all aerobic. More specifically, we're talking about training for two long-course events that exceed 5hrs for most people. You'll much more likely find the answer in one of two places:
1. Execution
2. Physiological makeup -- Unfortunately you won't find the true answer to this one unless you want to do a biopsy of your muscles. However, we can make some relatively good assumptions based on training and race data. Again, it's all about the data...
Thanks, Chris
Good luck...and I hope you experience some pleasant surprises!
I'm not sure I'd call it underperforming.
Chris makes a good point- it is all aerobic. Just higher or lower intensity.
Re HIM's I've never held .85 for the bike. It's always been high 70's low 80's. I wonder how many AGers really hold .85 for the 56 and then run well.
Also, I've been reading up on our "power systems" and the training of same and different athlete's inclinations and is it nature or nurture etc. For instance, Cavendish has major 15 second explosive power, where Petacchi has 30 second, but Thor will dust them both on a longer sprint. Just an example, but I have noticed a lot of female athletes that can absolutely tempo you to death and are signifcantly better at longer distances but can't push the intensity. Is this simply from a lack of training the intensities or is it genetic, slowtwitch versus fasttwitch? Or both? I know of at least 2 very good triathletes, both women who seem to have one gear. A very good gear, but no extra turbo whatsoever. And they've trained power and pace.
This is the point I was trying to make. Someone who can do a 4:02 in an IM Marathon could reasonably expect to go in the low to mid 1:40s in an HIM. Clearly one IS running faster to achieve this. Again, speculating, someone who struggles to increase speed in shorter races probably has both a higher ratio of slowtwitch fibers AND also probably has not max'd out the potential, through mitochondrial mutliplication, to be able to use carb-burning muscle contraction as well as fat burning. That can only be achieved through judicious use of IP and TP training efforts, on top of the Long Slow Distance which seems to be the staple of Ann's training.
Brenda, I will definitely let you know how it goes!
---Ann.
Ann, I think the common threads are:
I've been training with a lot of the same people for years. I've been training acquaintances with many more people for those same years. These folks come in all flavors and sizes. There are many folks who've never seen make themselves truly, truly uncomfortable. The kind of stuff you all do every day. I know they think they're working hard but I look into their eyes, listen to their breathing and say "nope, you're not." Many of them train with power and it drives me crazy that they just don't/can't/won't bury themselves via the number on the dial. Then there are a very small handful (I'm talking 3-4 folks only) who can turn themselves inside out consistently. This later group is MUCH faster and gets faster much faster than the former because they are comfortable with extreme discomfort.
I have a couple guys in particular that I'm going to sit down with in a couple weeks and have a C2J meeting with. These guys are racing Louisville or Canada and we have the potential to do some really good training together this summer but I need them to cowboy up.
Ann - just for comparison sake - my best marathon times are generally around 4 hrs but my best half mary times are around 1:42 - 1:45. Logically this race pace difference makes sense - I should be able run faster for a shorter distance. I haven't done enough IMs to compare run times. But, nonetheless, like Coach R and others have said, for me I think it has alot to do with the fact that I have LESS FEAR of pushing myself at the 13.1 distance cause I know I'll finish somehow and am more willing to endure more discomfort - higher heart rate, heavy legs, possible blow-up, etc. I have yet to find that same level of confidence at the 26.2 distance or IM. Plus, I've done a lot more speed work for13.1 (or shorter) than for 26.2. So right now I am much more confident that I can get my 13.1 times down (whether HIM or half mary) moreso than IM/Marathon time.... but thats the game/goal....and in part why I'm here ....to GET OUT OF MY COMFORT ZONE at all distances.
B/T/W - last summer I ran into a 64 yr old man that physically looked just like how I would picture a 2:30 marathoner would look assuming he kept in shape thru the years. Turns out he was a club runner since his late 20s and PR'd at all the mid (10k) to ultra distances in his MID-50s !! After listening to many entertaining stories , the one thing that stood out was his comment that you had to keep working on SPEED. That was the turning point in his running career. He was adminant that this is the key to getting faster at any distance and maintaining speed as you get older. And he specifically said - "train yourself to be comfortable at being UNCOMFORTABLE" ......which I think is what we do here in the HAUS.....
Ok. This is going to seem like I'm picking on Al but I'm not. However, the above statement emphasizes to me the dangers of not having data. We all make this mistake, which is: There's simply nothing in this thread that truly indicates Ann's training consists of lots of LSD. We draw this conclusion by the words she chooses to describe her training.
I remember arguing (negative spin)/debating (positive spin) with people on Gordo's board what was the proper (primary) training intensity for IM. I was advocating the so-called LSD approach primarily because that's what I thought I was doing and it appeared to be working really well. Of course, everyone else pegged me as an LSD dude too. Now that I go back and look at my data (and understand it better), I was clearly wrong. I wasn't really an LSD dude. I trained quite a bit higher than what was considered to be LSD.
Subjective terminology makes these discussions really difficult because we all relate different levels of RPE to different levels of power or pace.
Thanks, Chris
Two questions:
1) Have you run a half at all recently? Or is this an old half PR?
2) does all of the above talk about 'burying yourself' make you cringe and say 'why would I want to do that to myself?'.
If it's #1, it could just be a function of racing choices. If it's #2, and you are running the same pace for a 2 hour event and one significantly longer, it's a choice. A perfectly fine choice, but a choice nonetheless. Long course can be a great outlet for folks who don't like the pain of pushing themselves fast/hard, because you have to go slower to begin with, and you can always focus on just getting to the finish line when it hurts. In a shorter race, you need to be able to answer the question "why am I doing this?", and just getting to the finish line can't be the answer, since slowing down is always fine in that circumstance.
Again, no judgement in this post, but it is important to recognize that there may be a choice behind these results.
My training over the past few years has been with a coach who is anti-technology. So the HR monitor got thrown out. No power meter. No Garmin. It was all done on feel. There were intervals on the run and the bike - but with guidance like "fast" or "hard" or "just a bit over your comfort level", etc. I pretty religiously did the intervals on the run workouts, but really have no idea how much "work" I was actually doing. But for most of my long runs, I would say that I was NOT running LSD. It was more a z2 effort I would say. Same on the bike. No JRA, but more a upper steady kind of riding.
I think my problem at the HIM is primarily that I didn't KNOW how hard I should be doing it. I didn't really have any pacing guidelines to follow. At IM, I didn't really need them - just get going and don't stop (and NO WALKING! - that was pretty much drilled into me!). I think with the EN pacing guidelines I have a shot at doing better. And Rich, although I don't actively seek pain, if I need to, I can go there and come through on the other side.
Thanks so much all for the comments and insights. Much appreciated.
---Ann.
Best of luck with the rehearsals and the training!
You can't expect race day to come around and magically be able to do something you have not been doing in training.
I would certainly say that's a strong reflection of what I also experience between the two distances. However, we are both pretty well-accomplished triathletes and I do believe that one of the significant characteristics required to perform at that level is to be able to maintain that hurt for the necessary time period. Keep in mind that I still perform better on the IM run than I do at the HIM run, relatively speaking, of course.