6 hour marathoner

vickaiser

ENNoob here (Day 3 of trial period) but I'm loving the vibe and the training philosophy and am IN.  But I need to reconcile some old school thinking here before I dive in.  Pardon me if this has been coverered.

I'm 43 days out from my first ironman, IMTX.  And to put it frankly, I'm slow.  I've come a long way.   I'm ready for this race.  But it is going to take me all of 16-16:30.  My long run pace is ~13:30.

So, here's my question.  My coach, who I'm NOT gonna fire just because I'm looking at EN and probably following the last  6 weeeks of the Beginner IM plan, has me running 20 miles this week.  This afternoon as a matter of fact.  Now, at my pace, that's a 4+ hour run. So, I'm really considering going the EN way and getting a good 2.5-3 hour run in.  This is a big leap of faith for me.  I hear what RnP is saying about how the long run fits into the WHOLE schedule and how running 4+ hours affects the training the rest of the week.  But in my head, I'm having a hard time letting go of that 20+ mile mentality during peak phase.

Help!  Talk to me.  Tell me it's ok. Or, tell me to run 22.  I'll do whatever y'all say.

Barbara Spitler

Victor, I'll start by telling you that I'm at the same exact pace you are! I'm an experienced marathoner who is slow. I am going to suggest that you follow EN protocol and do the 2.5-3 hour run. As you know, 6 hours is a long darn time, and recovery is too! How far is your longest run thus far? You are only 43 days out from your first IM. Wish I could give you experience regarding the run after the bike in IM, but I don't have it to give. However, I can tell you that having a season of EN style training, with fast on top of far, prepares you for your race. It's hard to let go of that really long run, mentality. Don't know how you've been training with your coach. But I'd say do 3 hours and see how you do. You're probably going to have done a half mary, or maybe 15 miles, in that time. You are still getting a pretty long run in, w/o overstressing your body. I hope you get this prior to your run. If not, I hope your run went well. Even if you do the 22 miler, you can still follow the EN protocol from there on. Let's put it this way, I had extreme heat issues in IMLOU last year. (My first IM) Gave my RX glasses and 3 1/2 hour bottle of Infinit nutrition, to a volunteer who promised to have them at the swim in table, waiting for me upon arrival from the river. She didn't. Decided to bike in RX SWIM GOGGLES in 110 heat index and 95 degree heat w/95% humidity. Lack of nutrition, and lack of oxygen to my eyes, caused me to bonk. (Had to keep clearing the goggles for steam, every few seconds!) I did make it to mile 73 on the bike, before I had to call it. Weather was extreme that day. But, I felt strong going into that race, and had absolutely NO DOUBT in my mind, that EN training prepared me, even w/2.5 hours as my long runs! I KNOW I WOULD HAVE FINISHED, had circumstances been different. That's the best I can tell you. Hopefully a veteran who has done the full monty, will chime in here and give more input.
Good luck, whatever you do! And welcome to EN!!! Please update me as to what you did, and how it went!
Barb

GMAN 19030

I jumped into EN halfway through my IMFL training last year. I was also kind of suspicious of the 2.5 hour max run philosophy (which is also championed by most decent IM plans and not just EN). Everyone thinks to themselves, "Oh god... how am I going to run 26.2 miles if the most I have run is 16 or 18 or whatever?" I was worried about it but I knew better than to go and do some 3.5 or 4 hour training runs because the recovery would be too much.

Fast forward to IMFL and it wasn't that big of a deal. My longest run to that point was like 17 or 18 miles and I finished the IM marathon in 4:30 with plenty left in the tank which meant I could've sped things up. My goal is a sub-4:00 at IMTX now that I know more what to expect. Of course, May in Houston is a lot warmer than November in PCB, FL but nevertheless.

You'll be okay. Don't run 22 miles.

cariesumida

I did Ironman Wisconsin in 2008 on a heavy volume, long slow pace type of program and my run time was 6:30.  Fast forward to Ironman Canada 2010 on EN programming and my run time was 5:22 (even with a big time bonk, headache and nosebleed).  I would trust EN philosophy and skip the 4 hour slow run and do the 2.5 - 3 hr long run with the prescribed intervals.

Tom Glynn

Been with EN a long time. I'm a relatively fast guy and I rarely run more than 15 miles. Longest run so far leading up to IM TX is 20 miles, 2.5 hours. Legs are thrashed. Most IMs I max out at about 17-18 miles in training. Biggest piece of the equation is the recovery. I can't imagine running 4+ hours and begin ready to train in the next 3 or 4 days again. You want to push hard, but it's easy to get injured running, so always be prepared to back down on the intensity. To me, consistency, 4-6 times a week trumps almost anything. Body comp is also a big issue; weighing 130 lbs almost always is better than 230.

Coach Rich

Hi Victor,

Welcome aboard!

My two most recent blog posts have been on the Sunday long run and > 2.5hr long run. I don't know your coach and I don't really pay attention to what other coaches do. However, I've personally put over 400 1:1 coached athletes through this non-Sunday, <2.5hr run thing since I started coaching Ironman athletes in 2001. Patrick has similar coached-athlete numbers. Thousands (not kidding, thousands) of Crucible Fitness, Performance Training Systems (RnP's former coaching companies) and now EN training plan athletes have done the same thing. </p>

These two long run concepts are, in my opinion, like laws of physics. It is the absolute truth, the way it should be, and I'll step into the coaching ring with anyone who says differently. Running longer than 2.5hrs...maybe 3hrs if you're one of the lucky, lucky few who scores a 3hr long run pass from RnP...is about the worse thing you can do for your training. If this long run is on Sunday after a long bike, it's even more worser even.

Short answer: your current coach's 4hr (!!!!!!!!) long run is based on his data set. See our data set above. We've learned a better way.

ghernand

Victor:

you say you are slow, but all you have to do is join EN and you'll get a lot faster in an efficient and productive way.

all of us have gotten faster doing as EN recommends.

faster: due to proper stress (pace guided) to the body and proper recovery (EN plan schedule). along the way, you learn how to drop weight.  less weight = faster.  also along the way, you learn tips on running technique.  better technique = faster.    finally, you learn how to race (the four keys).  4 keys = faster.

see you at the races!

GH

 

vickaiser

Thanks, everyone.  I stepped out on faith this evening and ran 3 hours only.  I covered a little over 14 miles.  I threw in 3 or 4 MP miles there towards the end.  Great thing is, I could actually get in my car afterwards and I anticipate not needing my handicap sticker when I drive around tomorrow.

So, everything you all say makes sense and I'm pumped about this season with EN.  One more question...Rich, are your 2.5 hour/Thursday long run laws predicated on an athlete having trained the EN way for the previous months?  I.e., With 6 weeks and a day to IM TX, would you really recommend my changing gears to the EN way?  I know this is a decision I'm going to have to make.  I'm just wondering if absent all the "hard" stuff you guys have on your schedule in the preceding months and the fact that I've been training long and slow for the better part of a year, do I just need to finish this last 6 weeks out the "old" way of jump in head first?

Guess your answer might be based on what I've done so far.  As far as runs, I have 4 or 5 16-18 mile runs under my belt.  I've done 4 100+ rides including the full 112 on the IMTX course.

left.right.repeat

Old slow guy here - you are fine.....nuf said....trust me.

Attend the four keys talk.  Drink a big glass of the kool-aid and execute.  You will be an Ironman before you know it.

Gordon Cherwoniak

Victor,

I miss this before you long run but you will be fine with the 14+ miles you just ran.  As for your question on jumping in to the EN training over the next 6 weeks I don't have an answer but if Rich or Patrick don't answer this post I'd suggest posting it in the Macro thread in this forum.

Gordon

mgraffeo

Victor, I don't speak for others, and haven't coached thousands through the IM. However, I did stay at a holiday inn express last night...

The reason RnP suggest the Thursday long run is due to better ability to recover from all the workouts throughout the week. This works well within the EN plan. However, simply taking a different coach's plan and making that switch could be risky, depending on what else is scheduled around Thursday. For example, you may have a track session on Friday, or a hard bike on Wednesday, either of which would make that switch vey difficult to pull off.

Does it make sense to switch to an EN plan 6 weeks out? Sorry, that's over my pay grade. If you are having doubts about the current plan, then maybe so. If not, probably not. But i'll leave it to folks with more experience to answer.

vickaiser

Thanks, Mike. It's a tough call for me. I think my main takeaway is to take the long run down to 3 hours or so. Get 'er done and recover. I will tell you this. My bike today was GREAT. I got some good hard work done and it's because I wasn't crippled and laid up from my prescribed 4-5 hour run yesterday. Oh, and my brick run after my bike was stellar. Got a good warm up and picked up the pace on a couple of the 4 miles. Felt good. I feel good. Got my 2.4 swim rehearsal done at the lake too. Good day.

Tom Glynn

Victor,

you still had an incredible amount of work this weekend. A three hour run one day, then the next day a 2.4 mile swim, a bike and a run. Wow! I think you are still on the top end of work around here (at least you should be )

That kind of load would cripple me pretty quickly.

vickaiser

Well, the swim was a "leisurely" one. And tomorrow, I'm off and going to see all my friends WORK at the IMTX 70.3 in Galveston. I need a little inspiration and a fun day to myself with no training. And then Monday, wifey-poo leaves for a cruise with her church friends so daddy's playing Mr. Mom, Mr. IM-in-training, AND Mr. 40-hours-a week-working man. Now that's more work than I'm used to doing.

phatcentaur

I'm running around the same pace. During the IMTX one loop run this past Friday (which I got lost on) I ran a 13:09 pace and had to work for that. http://tpks.ws/uIKi
I do a run 9 minute/walk 1 minute plan. That was after resting for several hours after a rough 90 mile bike.

My guess as someone who has never done an IM, is that if we can keep a pace around 13:30 for the entire run, we will still end up passing people that went too hard on the bike and the swim.

I'm running 10 miles tomorrow if my sore hammy holds up. I think it is going to be my longest run before IMTX. I can't finish IMTX if I can't walk to the starting line.

Norton

To all you guys that think you're "slow": follow the EN IM pacing guidelines and I guarantee that you'll be passing hordes of walkers late in the marathon. It may seem like a stupid gamble to let all those folks pass you early on, but it's a long day; pace it right and you'll be triumphant at the end.

Coach Rich

Victor,

1. Endurance is a cumalutive thing, the result of frequency + volume + intensity applied consistently over weeks and months of training. It has much, much less to do with how long/short 4-5 specific training runs are/are not during your training for the event. This is the mistake that most other coaches make, making the mistake that a long run needs to be x hours because something magical is happening. They then lose sight of the importance of the other stuff around it and, more importantly, don't consider how specific workouts affect downstream sessions. This is at the root of my non-Sunday, < 2.5hr long run guidance.
2. In our experience, when the gun goes off at the start of your race at 7am, 98% of people out there have done solid IM training. They have the fitness to finish. But HOW they finish from that point is about race execution, not fitness. Look at the race execution resources we have created for the team. You will not find that anywhere else. Bottomline is that two athletes with equal fitness, the EN athlete will likely race faster, and race to their potential, because they know how to race. The rest of the tri-space doesn't realize how important this is because it's easier to sell you a training plan, $xxx/mo coaching to create a training plan for you, $xxxx camps to help you build fitness, $xxx carbon aero-widgets to hang off your bike, etc. No one teaches race execution except EN.

 

scott dinhofer

@ Graffeo - LOL on the HIE comment!!!

Victor: I jumped into EN last September, i was training for IM AZ coming off a calf muscle injury that didn't effect biking or swimming but did affect my running. i was following a book that an experienced IM friend gave me that loaded up on volume.

I started the EN plan with 10 weeks to go. while in a previous life (15 years ago) i was a 3:45 marathoner, i was happy to get this one done in 5 1/2. my last 6 miles were at a 13:30 pace. i never did more than 2.5 hours in the training. In my former marathon life, we loaded up on volume, ran for miles, executing at least 5 runs of 18-22 miles in the 2 months before the marathon.

This stuff works!