COACHES - Help With Bike Fit Question
Coaches and/or Experienced Vets - I'm in Week 10 of Adv IMCDA plan. Got a wild idea that my fit needed "fixing" due to some knee & ass pain. Took bike to Fitter yesterday. He suggests I move my P2C saddle back to the 75 degree hole and slam it BACK another 4cm for a whopping total move BACK of 7cm. Did 4 X 10' this morning per plan, ouch...hamstrings hurt A LOT. Ran after...if you can call it running. Concerned about a dramatic move like this in the thick of training. Thinking now, "how in the hell will I do Mile repeats tomorrow?". Rookie mistake by a veteran.
Should I...
A. Live with the new fit and "adapt".
B. Move the saddle back part of the way - split the difference like say 3.5cm back.
C. Move the saddle back the way it was before my stupidity took over.
???
Comments
Jim,
DAMN IT! Okay, thanks for the gut check. I ought to be whipped and shot for allowing this to happen. I know better.
Rich/Patrick - Am I playing with fire by plowing ahead with Mile repeats tomorrow? Or should I just see how I feel when I get up?
Also find our bike fit ebook in wiki somewhere and read that. In my opinion (I took Empfield's very first FIST clinic back in '03 so I was the in that first "class" of about 8 folks to be certified), bike fit is NOT rocket science. Read our ebook, learn, and empower yourself to either to it yourself or participate in the process with a KNOWLEDGEABLE fitter.
As anyone here will tell you, local bike fitters and LBS mechanics are a major pet peeve of mine.
Jim,
The bike fit wiki page is here:
http://members.endurancenation.us/R...c=Bike+Fit
Gordon
I totally agree w/Rich that if you're riding a P2C with the saddle in the rear hole, you bought a bike for eye candy rather than to use it as intended...unless you ahve a very bizarre body proportion (very long torso...since the cervelos are already "long" bikes). Rich knows a hell of a lot more than I do about it, but the whole point of that bike is to get you rolled FORWARD so you can be in a position that's not terribly different than a "road" position, except that your whole body is rolled forward so your torso is more or less parallel to the ground.
Think about what it does to yank your butt 7 cm back from where it was if your front end doesn't move...it sure as heck closes up your hip angle, which makes it harder to breathe and harder to bring your thighs up close to your chest (on the upswing). That's a HUGE adjustment, especially without radically moving a lot of other stuff!
FWIW, I had a good, comfortable fit from my (good) LBS, but still worked with Todd over the winter and am happy with what he's done with me. It's not a fit you'd use to sell a bike (except to a pretty seasoned racer) because it's more aggressive than immediately comfortable, but he really listened to what was working for me and what I wanted to do. You do need to be prepared to buy a few inexpensive pieces (stems, etc) to go that way, though...so be aware of that. I can eyeball some fitting issues reasonably well by now, but Todd did have an insight that I did not in how to fix something for me, and it was thus money well spent.
All that being said...if you change your fit that drastically (even in a "good" way), you're just bound to be sore the first few times you ride it. You aren't using entirely different muscles, but you are emphasizing different parts of them.
Here are some photos of the "Old" position. I moved the seat angle back to the front and moved my saddle back to the previous position. I have TWO 1cm Spacers remaining in the headset stack. I am wondering if I should remove one?
How do I look?
1. it looks like your seat could come up a touch.
2. your shoulders are much, much higher than your hips, making you into more of a parachute than you want to be. I'd definitely look at getting rid of the spacers, and even start to think about a steeper stem, to see how low you can get your front end.
3. It looks overall like the bike might be a bit short for you (if you were to get the front end as low as desirable). That 'might' have been the rationale for your fitter moving the saddle back (though I think that's a bad tradeoff). If you're able to get the front end down, you may also want to look into a longer stem (hard to say, need to see some pics with the spacers out first).
Mike
Remember that when you raise the seat, it also moves back a bit. When you take out the spacers on the headset, your cockpit will also move forward, but not very much.
It looks like you have either an 83 or 90 degree stem. If you want to get down some more, consider investing in a 73 degree (sometimes called -17 degree) stem, which will mean the stem itself will be horizontal to the ground. If you want to explore moving forward a bit, you can beg, borrow or steal a couple stems of various lengths. One reason the -17 degree stem is so great is that it doesn't chnage the height of your cockpit. Having a 90 or 100 or 110 mm stem leaves you at the same height. Not so for stems of other angles. Anyway, I agree with Mike that the bike looks "short" for you a bit, and maybe a longer stem would be called for. They cost ~$25 apiece. Lots of brands. "Dimension" is a brand that is pretty inexpensive and will still do the trick.
Another place to play with the height of the cockpit on your bike is the elbow pad height. The elbow pads on that set of bars can be supported by pedestals of 25 mm, 12.5 mm, or "zero" (actually about 2.5 mm) height. that just moves the height of your elbows without moving anything else. If I had to guess, it looks like you have the middle ones, but I can't tell. If you don't have the others with you as part of what you got with the bike, the LBS should be able to give them to you or get them very cheaply.
Good luck!
Thanks Mike. I'm going to address this with incremental moves. Drop a spacer, try it for a few rides, adjust saddle, try it out, etc.
Knee and Ass Pain - my experience is that this likley has more to do with saddle height, pedal selection and cleat position. Did the fitter measure your knee angle at BDC and check that cleats are positioned correctly? If not, get the video camera out and post some vidoes from the side, and front of your pedaling. Are you sure your shoes/pedals are right for you?
Next I would start to workout about the position of your bars. My initial thoughts agree with other good advice that was shared. You looked cramped and the setup looks too short to me as well. Bars should go lower and further forward. I would get rid of a spacer and move the bars forward a cm or two and see how that feels. Keep in mind that that if you move the saddle forward you will need to move the bars to compensate for that as well.
Not sure if this helps, but I had my bike fit from Todd also. Here is a pic of me and another fast guy for reference on aero position. My aero bars were too short in this pic, if you compare these pics to you, you can see how much higher up you sit.
tom
I just requested a refund from the dude at the LBS who "fitted" me with this crazy ass fit. We've been trading emails back and forth and I told him he's a great Road fitter but I need tri-specific help. Based on his disposition as a person I have little/no faith he'll grant me a refund but it's worth a try. I've put my bike back to where it was before. And I have an appointment with a dude who's FIST certified and done 100+ fits to get me squared away.
Sounds good but, again, read the ebook and participate in the process. Trust...but verify
.
My fit nightmare story: in 2005 I was registered for CaliHalf, Wildflower (about a month apart) and IMCDA. We had a dude here who fired up a PT/training studio and he was from the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine, disciple of...some big famous bike fit doode, don't recall the name, and he did "biomechanical bike fitting."
So...I decided to give this guy a shot at fitting me the week of CaliHalf. Yeah. Anyway, does a biowhatever assessment of me and fits me on the bike using KOPS (Knee Over Pedal Spindle). Slams me back in the saddle, raises the bars, some pretty big changes. Come race day...I was absolutely miserable. I was so uncomfortable that I could barely hold my IM watts in a half. In 2004 I split a 2:28 @ ~250w, good for about top 5 AG'er bike split in the whole race. '05 I was DYING to hold ~220w and ride a 2:42. Run was even worse.
So...I take the bike apart and put everything back where it was, the fit I had settled into over the years after getting FIST certified and just taking a couple allens wrenches with me on rides and moving stuff around. One month later I won 35-39 AG at Wildflower with a ~2:34 bike split and ran 1:36-37, I believe.
So, in my experience, great that a guy is FIST certified but it really, really helps if that cat has spent hours and hours in the bars training and racing Ironman. That experience on the bike is invaluable. Anyone of you could be a bike fitter after reading our ebook, locking yourself in the bars and just paying attention to what's going on. It's not rocket science.
Rich - See response from LBS bike fitter doode below. After giving this some thought I wonder if I'm way over-thinking my setup. I've ridden this setup for many years. It could be better but maybe this is a matter of me reading the eBook (which I did last night) and then making some adjustments over time. Anyway, let me know what you think. Thanks.
Jim,
I truly understand your concerns. However I do feel the new position is correct. I strongly believe if you ride in your old position you will be doing permanent damage to your knees and spine.
You came to me with knee pain that is very typical with being too far forward. 12cm’s in front of the pedal spindle is too far forward. I don’t know anyone that would disagree with me.
Steeper seat tube angles were derived based on traditional saddles. Your body has no idea of what seat tube angle you’re riding. Just because your saddle is at a more relaxed angle on the bike doesn’t mean your body is. Recommending saddle position based on seat tube angle alone is an elementary and grave error. The design of the Cobb and similar saddles (ISM) puts the sit area much further forward than traditional horned saddles. This design effectively generates steeper seat tube angles of approximately 6 degrees. Therefore setting your saddle in the 78 degrees position is effectively placing you at 84 degrees.
The problem is the change was too quick just as I discussed with you especially with your current training schedule. Moving your saddle 6 cm’s forward shortens your reach by 6cm. forcing you to roll your back, disengaging your core and restricting breathing.
You could put a longer stem on but a stem 6cm longer than what you have doesn’t exist and if it did bike handling would be jeopardized. Going lower and more aero will stress your hamstrings and reduce power output.
Granted I am not a tri-athlete but what experience and equipment don’t I have? I have fit more tri-athletes than any fit tech in the state. After 17 years of fitting I’m easily at 4000 fittings 1000 of those are tri fits. I have been recommended by renowned orthopedic surgeons, tri coaches and national publications. I would love to speak to whoever is recommending your old position to review your case with them. Your old position plus a lower aero bar is spelling disaster for your body.
Please don’t take my response as condescending or rude. It surely isn’t meant that way. I have the up most respect for your ability and sport.
You came to me for my fitting advice. Disregarding my advice and digressing to your old fit will create premature lumbar and cervical degeneration and arthritic knees.
Sincerely
Mike
Done. Video uploaded and waiting for Todd's response.
Jim,
Ok, I didn't know that you were using an Adamo. The Adamo doesn't have a nose, I would call it a "virtual nose" and it's very tough to compare it's position and resultant saddle fore/aft to a traditional saddle. So "who knows" where you're guy is measuring that 75 degrees from. In a traditional saddle, it's
But, again, the Adamo is so different from other saddles that I don't know where you guy is measure all of this from.
These are the steps I've used to fit myself and a few others, back when I was going bike fitting. This is per FIST stuff but is really just commonsense. The key, however, is this and this is what I told people when I began fitting them: You have a bike fit and I'm here to help you find it. We're going to put you within certain ranges of where you should be but where you ultimately end up is a fuction of what feels right to you. You're going to tell me how it feels and I'll walk you through possible suggestions and changes based on what I know I about bike fitting but also on my experience as an Ironman cyclist.
2: Cockpit length -- looking for a distance between nose of saddle and rear edge of elbow pads that creates a position of bone support for your upper body: all the weight of your upper body is supported by the column of your upper arms.
3. Start dropping the front end, lower and lower, until we reach a state of "this is too hot, this is too cold, this is just right" kinda place. I'll then take them up a tick, buying them some time to adapt to the goal position of this "just right" place. While dropping the front end, maintain the same cockpit distance by moving saddle fore/after, raising/lower saddle if required.
4. Now, get on the bike and hammer, like an FTP interval. Where does your ass want to the saddle to be. More the saddle to where your ass wants it to be when working very hard. This is your body telling you where it feels the best combination of power and comfort as a function of hip angle. The resultant saddle position creates the seat tube angle which is created by where your ass wants the saddle to be, not by some magic bike fitting formula. This is the most critical difference, in my experience, between a road bike fitter and fitter who understands, from having done many many hours, riding in the aerobars.
5. Once saddle position is set, go back to cockpit length and get it back Step #2. This is why you never want to spend much money on stem, so you don't hesitate to swap out a 90 for a 110 or 120 if you need to.
Rich - Thanks for continuing to follow this thread. My saddle is a Cobb V-Flow Max...which I understand is similar to the Adamo. I think your assumption about my LBS bike fitter dude is right - he's trying to figure the effective seat tube angle based on using the non-traditional saddle. Regardless, said bike fitter dude hasn't fit anyone for Ironman recently (if ever). I was going to go to a FIST guy who is local, cheap ($100 - outta be my first clue) but I noticed his "experience" is short course. No long course. So Plan C is uploading my video (which I did) to Todd. I must say that hundreds of dollars later I am skeptical about spending another 200 bills on more fitting. But Todd is highly recommended here on EN and on ST. And you know, if you heard it on ST, it's gospel.
Your suggestions are excellent. I am kind of in that place right now mentally where I don't know really what the hell is going on. I have some knee pain (suggesting saddle too low) but when I watch myself pedaling I see some hip rocking and toe stretching at the bottom of the stroke (suggesting too high). I'm just confused.
Here's the video I uploaded for Todd.
http://www.mediafire.com/?lut43qu583n3tj1
Jim,
My larger point is that all of this is fluid and a function of personal preference. The bike fitter's role then not so much to fit you, or to impose some measurements and numbers onto you and your bike, but rather to act as a knowledgable advisor to help you find your fit.
Saddle position is determined by where your ass wants the saddle to be as it moves around to find the sweet spot that balances power and hip angle. For me, it's:
Seat tube angle is a by product of all of this, it's not a goal.
Rich - I'm getting this...slowly, but I'm getting it. One more question...what's your take on the risk associated with tinkering with bike fit with 10 weeks to go until IMCDA? I'm not new to Ironman training and racing but the idea of screwing around with stuff makes me wonder. It's my A race.