Tinkering with that Big Day Nutrition

morpheus

Been working with this for a few weeks.  Had a pretty big workout this Saturday and really felt strong throughout.  Probably helped that I'm finally snapping out of an extended Transition Period (turned a 2 week phase into a 3 week phase).

But, here's some things that I'm doing, that might go against traditional wisdom....

Started the day with AGAVE NECTAR.  normal big day breakfast is toasted waffles/peanut butter/banana but using this agave nectar instead of honey or syrup.  Low glycemic index for a slower burn.  Seems to be working well.  Cup of coffee.  And a cup of H2O/creatine (1g).  Yes, been trying it.   Been using it pre workout as 1g, small doses, no 3 week/6g loading dose.  But, this was the first workout where I actually did what may turn out to be stoopid.  I added about 0.3g creatine to my bottles.  1 scoop CytoMax/1scoop CarboPro/ and the small amount of creatine.  1 bottle per hour.  4 hour workout (4.5 if you add the swim that I did a little bit after), and felt great.  Intensity Factor registered north of 0.9, but felt like I was efforting around a 7 on the RPE scale (1-10).  Did my own stuff with the hard intervals for the first 2 hrs and then worked with a group ride for the next 60' before I peeled off to get to the house.

Typical post workout recovery stuff...choc milk, turkey/cheese, etc.

zipburn

Chris let us know how that creatine goes. When I was younger and faster, I tried creatine for a little bit came to the conclusion it was a waste. Then again I wasn't doing long course training. Like to hear about it.

morpheus

Will do, might be snake oil, but I'm getting some good workouts in these day. falls back on that old question of 'Are the nutrition tweaks improving the workouts, thus helping me get faster?' or 'am I just getting faster from the prescribed workouts?'

Let me just say, that I'm not seeing any negative effects. No weight gain. I didn't do a loading dose. Use 1g with juice 30-45' before workout, and I'm adding about 1/3 scoop (about .25-.3g) into my bottles during my hi intensity efforts. People do warn of cramps. I had ONE bad hammy cramp after a hard workout and I was sitting on my ankles to stretch. But, none in the last 4-5 weeks. Triathletes tend to be pretty good at staying hydrated, I think that helps us in this case. I'll try to keep you updated.

penlynwilson

@Chris: based on the physiology, the creatine shouldn't be giving you that much since you only spend a few seconds in the creatine-phosphate energy system. Most of your time is (or should be) aerobic which doesn't use it. Additionally, for meat eaters we get what our body needs from animal-based protein sources.

That said, if you think it is helping and want to spend the $$ for it, then go for it. I would also look closely at the product you are using. Many times the benefits seen from creatine actually are from other ingredients (listed or not) such as steroids. If you want me to check consumerlab.com PM me with the brand and product name and I'll check to see if it has been tested for purity and if so what the results were.

morpheus

Penny, I've considered what you've brought up. Talk to me about this....

I understand that there is less/no evidence that says endurance athletes benefit. I target the workouts where I'm going z5, whether it be a short interval that was scheduled or from a hard ride that I KNOW will include considerable time hitting peak watts/HR/RPE. I agree that z2/z3 pedaling gets nothing out of it. But, so much of what we do taps into higher intensity stuff. That's kindof what I'm tinkering with. To see, if there is a payoff on race day because of increased work on these kinds of sets/ride/runs/swims. And, please, your feedback is respected and appreciated.

BTW, I also have considered that it may be the other ingredients that are contributing. I'll send you some info when I get a few more minutes later. No need for PM'ing. Open Forum for everyone in da Haus. I'm well aware that there may be folks reading this thinking I'm a kook or trying to find some advantage. In reality, just trying get faster without doing anything that may be considered unethical or illegal.

Thx again,
C

penlynwilson

The creatine system is used for short bursts of activity, so if you are focusing it on workouts that use short (a few seconds) burst at z5, peak wats/HR/RPE. After 6 to 10 seconds, you slip into the anaerobic energy system. However, the research I've seen also shows that you need to go through the loading protocol *and* be a responder - some people do and some people don't respond to creatie.

Can you taste the creatine in the mix? It would be interesting to have a third party make two mixes - one with it and one without it - for two workouts. They wouldn't tell you which is which. You do two workouts, one with each mix, and see if you have a performance difference in the two workouts and if the one with the better performance is with the creatine.

There is so much we don't know about the body and nutrition. I'm really interested in what you are accomplishing with this tinkering.

Coach Rich

What I know about creatine is that apparently you're supposed to staple a full gallon of water to your hand and drink from it constantly. At least, that's what I've heard from my gymrat days...

morpheus

@ Penny - lots of studies out there, you're very aware of that I'm sure. And it took me less than 30 minutes to go thru a handful of them to find a couple that did indicate that there may be some benefit to the endurance athlete. H.I.T => higher ROI of the workouts => extended time to fatigue at threshold. I know, I know,....who's selling what, who funded the study, and you can make any study say anything you want with a little twisting. Just know that I didn't go into this blindly. Maybe biased, looking for that kick, but, not blindly.

I'm sure I'll avoid the placebo test. Would hate to have my bubble burst As it is, I'm aware it may be in my head. But, rather than hem and haw, come and go with ideas throughout the training period, I tend to take something like this and ride it out for a season. No sense in starting something, if you're not gonna see it thru. (However, would bail quickly if neg effects occurred, such as consistent cramping, deflated performance, big weight gain, etc) So, I know it goes against standard belief.

@ Rich - lots o water. don't know if that's why I haven't had any cramps, but I do know that's why I'm always calling for a pee break.

penlynwilson

As I tell everyone - the research may say one thing but if it works for you then do it!

Keep us posted on your progress.

morpheus

Penny! This was exactly what I was shooting for....now, how do I add a link?.... http://www.enduranceplanet.com/sports-nutrition-harms-of-heating-creatine-and-more/

don't know if that worked, anyways..... coincidence that I heard this today. I'm not the only kook out there!

Coach Patrick

Great stuff here...be cautious and keep us all posted!

Chris G

my recollection from the reading I have done in the past on creatine is that it only does anything once you build it up, like in take it for a few weeks.  If that is correct not sure how putting a small amount in your bottles would do anything.

As for race morning nutrition, I am a fan of pop tarts 

shane.allumbaugh

Just my two cents (which is probably not worth much) I have experimented with creatine on and off and my experience tells me it often does more harm than good in the endurance realm, because you have to drink to much water just to stay hydrated. Anything that dehydrates you can be dangerous and for this type of activity it will do very little for you if anything. The other thing to watch is most creatine sold over the counter has more other ingredients than just creatine and many are not very good qualiity at all.

Like I said, just my two cents.

mgraffeo

Listened to the podcast, and the argument seems to be that creatine allows fast twitch muscles to go a little bit longer before resorting to carbos, and that it allows you to go a little bit longer and harder (in sessions like track intervals), because you recruit more muscle fibers. This is the endurance analogy to what creatine does in weight lifting. Creatine doesn't take your max on the bench from 135 to 165 by itself, but it lets you do more reps at 135, which means your max will go up faster than if you were doing fewer reps without the supplement.

However, IMO, this is all a terrific way of suggesting to spend a ton of money for a placebo effect. There's nothing that we do in tri training that calls on anything more than about VO2 max intensity. For me, that's about 290 watts. When I go out and sprint as hard as I can on my road bike (because it's fun), I can go up over 700 watts. My VO2 max is less than 50% of my max intensity. To suggest that running 1/4 mile repeats is anything like doing a single-rep max on the bench (or a weight you can only do 3-5 times) is folly. It would be like benching 65 pounds if my max was 135. Creatine wouldn't help in that kind of workout.

If you're interested in understanding how the energy systems interplay, take a look at:

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/energy.htm
or
http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/energysystems.html

In the second, there's a table about 3/4 of the way down the link that suggests that 10% of a sport like distance running relies on this system. However, look at the graph in the first link. The ATP-PC system is responsible for zero after a very short period of effort.

smtalbott

As others have mentioned about creatine - its biggest benefit is for short-duration "power" activities such as lifting, sprinting, and high-intensity intervals.

Lots of people say that creatine has "no benefit" for an endurance athlete (unless you're using it to improve strength/power during weight/resistance workouts in the off-season) - but there is some decent research showing that creatine can improve glycogen synthesis following a hard/depleting effort. This effect probably has to do with the general effect of creatine to draw more water into the muscle cell - enabling a higher concentration of glycogen storage.

The main caveat with creatine use in endurance athletes is the same for carb-loading in general - which is that it can leave you with "heavy legs" in some cases. Not noticeable for some people, but a big problem for others...