How to run slower?

JeremyBehler

 I admit this is a strange question, but I have a really hard time running at my race pace +30 seconds when I get off the bike.  When I get to that speed it feels like I'm actively slowing myself down and messing with my form.  Interestingly, I have no problem on standalone runs with this.  My VDOT is 52.7 so Z1 is an 8:08 pace.  I can hit this or even slower fine on my normal runs, but after yesterday's 56 mile HIM RR, It was all I could do to run 7:20s for the first couple miles.  

So, any ideas here?  I don't want to purposefully slow myself down if it's not needed, but also don't want to burn the match and pay the piper later in the race.

 

Joe Matchette

I have been told that CoachP runs the first couple of miles with a water bottle in his hands to help keep/remind himself to go slow. I just look at my Garmin *a lot* initially b/c I too have problems holding my slow-down paces.

As to the necessity, I am assuming it to be true.....like CoachR says in his podcasts, RnP have puts hundreds, if not thousands, of athletes across the finish line. Therefore they have a significant data set to generate lessons learned.

Question -- did you 'walk your aid stations' or did you just run the whole 6 miles of your Race Rehearsal? Walking the aid stations counts towards your pace. If you haven't done so, take a look at what 10-15 paces will do to your heartrate. I think you will be surprised at how much and how quickly your HR drops.

Joe

kurshing

Jeremy...wait until race day; it is even harder. Just be thinking in your head, "they WILL come back to me...". 13.1 miles is a long way and you will benefit from starting at this controlled and slow pace. Trust the system.

Bob Arsenault

Jeremy, many of us have that same problem. The answer is practice,practice, practice.  It is not easy to do but it is necesarry if you want to finish strong.

Coach Patrick

I like advice #1: add in fake aid stations to slow yourself down. Remember at CDA 2007 I was running 6:30s instead of 8:00 pace...so I was walking 1:30 per mile to "equal" the right time until I was able to sync my legs with my brain!

Al Truscott

There's a question I'm almost afraid to put out there, but does this mean you should have biked a LITTLE harder, meaning either your FTP or your gear plan was a little too conservative?

In a race, for the first mile, my trick to slow down is to start a conversation with someone. If I can't talk in paragraphs (IM) or sentences (HIM), I'm working too hard at that point. If no one will listen, I just talk to myself!

JeremyBehler

Thanks all. Fake water stations is a good idea...I'll keep that in mind for next time.

@Al - I don't think I biked too easy. Two reasons for this. 1) My FTP has been 255-260 for a while now. As a matter of fact, my last test I flamed out and couldn't even complete it with avg watts in the high 260s before bailing. 2) After my three miles of 7:15ish pace I bumped up to 6:55 (Z2) but after two miles I had to back down a fair bit.

Mike Hedman

One thing to consider is your normal running cadence. I'm thinking that if you normally run at 80, but bike at 90, then when you get off the bike your muscle memory will still want to be going at 90. I think it's important for triathletes to synchronize their cadences - just for those first couple of miles of the transition run.
Mike

jburbatt

Posted By Mike Hedman on 08 May 2011 10:48 PM

One thing to consider is your normal running cadence. I'm thinking that if you normally run at 80, but bike at 90, then when you get off the bike your muscle memory will still want to be going at 90. I think it's important for triathletes to synchronize their cadences - just for those first couple of miles of the transition run.

Mike

 

To go along with synchronizing cadences, when I start my run after the bike I make a conscious effort to run normally, but focus on not pushing forward as much as pushing more upward which slows down your pace.  This way I'm still running with good form and good cadence, I'm just not going as fast, which makes turning it up after those first miles much easier.

JeremyBehler

Good thoughts on the cadence. During my run this morning I took a couple samples of my run cadence. I typically have cadence of about 80-85 in Z2/Z3, so 10-15 less than cycling. That said, I think cycling cadence measures the full revolution of each pedal stroke, which would mean that in one minute of cycling at cadence of 100 my right fool would make 100 revolutions. But in running, I've been measuring cadence as the number of 'steps', so running cadence of 80 would mean my right foot only makes 40 'revolutions' of the running cycle. Does this make sense? If so, I can see why its so hard to slow down when the muscle memory from biking has your legs moving at 2x the rate.

Coach Rich

Recommend you run with a GPS so you have contant pace feedback. You can also go out on the course beforehand and mark off the .5 mile marks for the first 3-4 miles if you need to, ie, you find out within a half mile, 1.5 miles, etc if you're running too fast vs waiting for 1,2,3 miles.

How to run slower? Friggin' run slower...just do it. Give us 30" per mile for 6 miles, 3 minutes and we'll make your race. Don't give us 3 minutes...and risk giving the race back much more than that later on. It absolutely works and running 10-20" per mile too fast can absolutely make a difference.

To counter Al's advice to talk to people...my advice, which I add to the live version of the 4k talk, is to have no friends for the first 18 miles. You run at exactly YOUR pace until 18. Don't run with anyone else, even if it's "only" 10-15" faster per mile than you should be running.

JeremyBehler

@Rich. I hear you...just do it. My issue is that I feel like if I go slower my form feels so un-natural that I could hurt myself from stressing tendons/joints I normally don't. I'm sure this is mostly/all in my mind. I do run with a Garmin 310 so have that instant feedback, that's how I know I'm starting out too fast. Next week will be my first true test with Triple T....I'll take your advice and convince my body to do what my mind knows it should be doing.

Chris G

Run slower.  Your tendons will be ok.  Really, they will.  As a bonus, it is easier than running fast.  I guess you can always run a minute faster than your target for the first few miles off the bike, then later on you will have plenty of practice running really slow and even walking.  The 1000's of people walking in the dark at every IM do not seem to be doing any tendon damage or putting any undue stress on anything 

JeremyBehler

Thanks all....I hear you and understand...now just a matter of executing. This is why I joined EN...the wealth of knowledge and experience of the collective team. I'm still new to the sport so much to learn...

kmepham

I haven't had the problem of starting out too fast on the brick runs in training, but just in case it becomes a problem on race day, I'm putting Lap Speed on the display of my Garmin 305. Speed can bounce around a lot, but average speed keeps me honest. Thinking of starting a new lap each mile, as I exit the aid station. First three laps/miles, keep that Lap Speed at or below 6.9 which is my Z1+30'. Similar to what I'm doing with NP on the Joule, starting a new interval every 20-30 minutes, with the first interval having a lower NP target.

Andy Fenton

I've done a similar thing to Kevin for my last few marathons. I have my Garmin 405 set to show current pace in the large window, then average lap pace & lap distance in the smaller sections ...every mile, I start a new lap ..... this gives me instant feedback on what's happening at that moment, plus allows me to adjust accordingly within the lap, therefore any deviation to pace is relatively short lived.

I also have a footpod & have the garmin auto scroll to show my cadence in a seperate window - this helps to ensure I'm running with a decent turnover/form.

charris

Good thread. Slowing down at the start of the run is *really* frickin hard to do - even with practice. IMO, one of the real benefits of bricks (besides time efficiency) is getting to practice more. Part of the problem is that lead legs feeling making you think you're going slow - when you're actually flying. It's basically impossible to do by feel - you need to *stare* at pace on your watch. Displaying Lap Pace is absolutely the way to go - with Auto Lap configured for 1 Mile (or KM) so you don't need to manually hit Lap.

There's nothing magical about it though: speed = stride length x stride frequency. So if your cadence is the same as it usually is (nice work - that's a good start), you must be pushing off harder - so push off less hard.

 

Getting this dialed in is really important - because there's a significant physiological cost to redlining. The same concept with the bike/TSS applies to running (i.e. if you spike, you are going to pay the price - and it's exponential).

 

The strategy CoachP describes (i.e. if you go out too hot, back WAY down to get back on track) is better than the alternative (keep running hot) but is not nearly as good as doing it properly in the first place. I realize he knows that, but to put it in more concrete numerical terms:

 

Let's say a runner has a VDOT was 58.7. That gives them a Threshold pace of 6:01. So miles 1-6 are supposed to be 8:00/mile for the first 6 miles, then 7:30 after that.

 

If runner A does a mile in 8 minutes at a steady 8:00 pace the whole time, the rTSS is 8.3

 

If runner B does that same mile in 8 minutes, but instead runs the first 5m12s at 6:30 pace, then says "whoops!" and follows it with 2m48s of walking at 14:00 pace to average the mile pace down, the rTSS is 9.1

 

That may not look like much, but both runners went exactly the same distance in exactly the same time, only Runner B used 10% more energy.

 

Of course rTSS isn't perfect (it's trying to apply a simple number to a very complex system), but the idea is clear - spiking will come back to haunt you - and it's arguably magnified even more in endurance events.