Power Geeks - Do you compare HR and RPE during your Intervals?

jmoss70

Okay, I think most power athletes DO compare HR and RPE as they do power-based intervals.  But here's the real question...do you let an unusually HIGH HR or RPE dictate or change up your power output?  

Example: 15 wks into IM Adv for IMCDA.  Z4 this AM on the trainer (no 30/30s due to some knee issues).  Did 8', 10', 12', 10' on 3' RI.  Fairly "easy" considering where I am in the plan.  From the beginning HR sky high (a good 8-10 beats higher than normal) and RPE was high as well.

8' - no problem, hit watts around 95% which is what I wanted on the 1st.

10' - halfway through, HR sky high, RPE high, watts cratering, coming down fast.  Held it together for a high Z3 at best.

12' - hung in there, decided to use HR as the guide today.  Was able to pace the watts better.  NPW better than last Int but still about 88-90%.

10' - same as the 12'.

Some days I find that the power just ain't happening and so I check the HR/RPE and if those are in the zone I'm working I adjust to those metrics rather than #1 - quit or #2 - drive myself into a wall.

Interested in feedback...

 

GSmith821

Jim, I hear you brother! The times that it just isn't there for me, I try to shorten my intervals 4x5' with 1-2'RI instead of 20' interval, for example, just to make sure I get the prescribed work in at the right power. After its all said and done, I then curse myself for how dang hard it was and question why it happened. Usually, just a mental thing but it has been stress, nutrition and hydration combinations in the past. Great job adjusting, committing to a plan and working it on the fly.

Chris G

40 minutes at FTP on the trainer, or anywhere for that matter, is really hard and just plain sucks sometimes.  I hardly ever wear a HR strap anymore as it never seems to tell me anything that I do not know.  Just do what you can and move on.  There is nothing wrong with doing intervals at .90.  Plenty of training benefit there.  Being able to do all the intervals at or above FTP is a sure sign that FTP is wrong in my experience.  

mgraffeo

I can see adjusting based on unusually high HR in a race, but in training, I seldom even notice (on the LYC, I usually don't switch over to that screen much), and for that reason, usually don't wear it.

Gordon Cherwoniak

Jim,

I watch my HR on the power intervals.  I do not let it dictate for one workout but if it continues for a couple workouts then I maybe having some overtraining issues.  For me when I am tired my problem is getting the HR up.  With the high HR and high RPE, like Chris I put in what can do and call it a day.  Although I do admit to pushing for that 95% on most intervals. 

Some days its just better to back off than to burn yourself out. 

I would have to find it in the wiki but there are some recommendations for day's like this.

Edit:

Here is the Workouit Triage from the Wiki:

http://members.endurancenation.us/R...Out+Triage

Gordon

 

Chris M.

The only thing my HR tells me anymore is whether or not I'm fatigued.  When I am, my HR will be considerably higher than when I'm fresh, at the same power output.  When X watts feels easy, HR will be low.  When that same wattage is a struggle, HR will be up to 10 beats higher.  Consequently, my Garmin HR strap rarely works correctly, so I almost never wear it anymore.

atasic

 Jim, you are onto something here that is not well accounted for.

In short RPE and HR will dictate my power output of the day to an extent. Here is the long of it.

Say you tested your FTP in 60F, no wind, no humidity, flat course. The number came out at say 290W.

Today, 62F, 90% humidity, no wind flat course. Take a note of that humidity. Intervals at 290W are not happening that day. Your FTP just like pace gets affected by temp and humidity in the same manner. 

Try 80F and 70-80% humidity, also not going to happen. RPE and HR will than assist you in figuring out what are you going to be holding for your 2x20min@FTP. If you try to latch onto 290W, you may last through the first interval to crumble during the second due to heat exhaustion. More effective is to lower the power to match your RPE and back it with HR.

In running, Daniels has helped develop pacing corrections for rise in temp/ heat index. In cycling with power, nothing is available just yet, simply going to have to use RPE and HR to assess.

Same is done during the race day. If you do not account for temp/ humidity, you are bound to blow up somewhere.

This is all valid if we are talking about the effect of environment on performance. If we are talking accumulated fatigue causing a performance underachieving, that is a different story.

HR is telling you the metabolic cost of that power output on a given day in those conditions. I would not use it as a primary metric, but certainly as a supporting one.

jneedell

To any and all,

The thing is I am sure I am missing something and maybe someone out there can direct me to the right conclusion.

I of course want to raise my FTP on the bike.

I am doing so but notice that for my effort (read HR) I seem to be high muscular fatigue with lower than expected HR at the correct intervals for biking using FTP zones.

In otherwords I feel strong aerobically and weak muscularly

Is there a standard relationship for HR/FTP much like FTP/kg that is a goal or potential to shoot for?

Thanks,

JN

mgraffeo

Jonathan,

HR is an effect, muscular work is a cause. If your muscles are tired, it doesn't put more or less workload on your heart. Feeling 'weak muscularly' is usually a result of being under-rested. When under-rested, HR can be high for some folks, others find they have a very hard time getting their HR up, so it's somewhat unreliable.

jneedell

Mike,

Thanks - yea. I definately fall into the second camp of keeping the HR up. I guess rest is a disciple I need to master. Its not the training its usually working late or worse just staying late to watch crappy TV. Antway I suspect my FTP is higher if I were to test when truly rested. I think I can find the time to rest and be disciplined for a week before my next FTP test.anks,

Thanks,

JN

 

Al Truscott

FWIW, Joe Friel's most recent blog touches on this topic, talking about HR/Watts and HR/Pace as measures of input (HR) to output (power, pace), and signals about one's change in fitness over time.

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/05/speed-power-heart-rate-and-fitness.html

In general, my ratios start to stabliize after about 8-12 weeks of training. After that, I assume I am training my muscular energy systems more than my "cardiovascular" (heart, lung, hematocrit, blood volume) systems, and that's why my muscles tire more easily than my "aerobic" sense does.

jneedell

Al,

I saw this blog this morning as well. Funny to be so timely.  I understand your comment on muscular versus cardio and agree a bit as 40+ for me just happened so I find keeping my strength is more of a challange.

Thanks,

JN

TH3 FRB

I haven't used a HR strap in years. I find RPE to vary some for a given power output depending on the day and if I happen to be stuck on the trainer ot not. I only adjust the power if I'm on the trainer because I know I can only manage something around 95% FTP if I hope to even come close to finishing the workout. Outside I'll push it at the goal watts as long as I can but more likely cut the intervals shorter instead of drop the power back. Don't know which one is better actually but I tend to focus on hitting the planned intensity.

cwhyte

Sometimes it's just worth noting when your experience or understanding exactly resembles someone else's experience or understanding. That would the case for me with what Chris G and Mike G wrote. Perfect...