Are Vittoria Corsa CX + Latex Tubes Durable Enough for Ironman?

jmoss70

I posted this over on ST a few minutes ago.  But I'd like some feedback from the EN crew on this one...

I'm getting into the rolling resistance and ride quality game. I have Zipp 808 clinchers. Historically have ridden GP4000s with Butyl tubes and no flats in 3 IMs (knock on wood). So why change? Well, I guess there's nothing better to do so I bought some Vittoria Corsa CX 23 tires and Vittoria Latex tubes. Deal me in...



Before I run out and mount these tires I want to know if this setup is:



A. The right match for the wheels I have.

B. Durable and reliable enough to ride 112 miles in a race.



Thanks.

Jeff Braaten

I rode that exact setup this past weekend at IMTX. They rode great and no problems at all. This was my first race with them and all prior races had been with Michelin Pro 3's and butyl tubes.

Bob Irwin

Jim - I saw the 21 vs 23 comment on ST. I asked the guys at Zipp the same question about a month ago (only with 404's as that's what I have). They told me that 21's would save 2 watts, 60% of the savings from the front tire. 2 watts counts, but I think I'll probably stick with 23's. I also use these tires and tubes with no problems. Just put my race tires from last year on for training.

Tom Glynn

for me, same answer as Jeff. No problems at all. Wheels are 404 up front and DT Swiss with PT and disk cover on back

mancona

yes, i have run the corsa cxII 20 up front and 23 in the rear for pretty much every race over the last 2 years with both michelin and challenge latex tubes ... works perfect. I had one flat and it was a huge cut caused by hitting an object in the road that would have damaged any tire. It's a great combo that will work well.

If you you want the most aero for your wheels, I would run a bontrager aerowing tt 19mm up front as it matches perfectly with the 19mm wide alloy brack track on the zipp alloy clinchers. Any 20 or 21 is next in line after that as the bontys are very hard to find now, I actually sold the one I had for more then I paid for it.

jmoss70

Corsas are insane hard to get the last 5-6 inches of tire bead over the rim.  Lots of sweat involved.  I mounted the rear tire last night.  Will a 20 on the front make it even harder to get that last bit over the rim?  And, will these tires loosen up?  I'd hate to be in a race situation and have that kind of work involved.

mancona

Jim, Maybe I've just been lucky but the 4 vittorias I have arn't that hard to get on, they are harder than some tires but much easier than a trainer tire! I don't find them any harder to put on then any other race tire (i.e. Michelin Pro Race and Zipp Tangente are the just as hard). Make sure you are using a very thin rim strip like the zipp one, that you only have a little air in the tube, and that you have the rest of bead in the center of the rim when you are working on the final inches. Then just use your palm and hand to push the rest over.

jmoss70

Thanks.  I don't want to overstate this but I had to really work hard with levers on the last 5-6 cm and be extremely gentle to avoid damaging the latex tube.  Way harder than any other tire.  Today, I heated up the front in the dryer and then mounted it without a tube so I could mount and remount it several times to get it stretched.  It's still very stubborn.  I'm going to leave it overnight and then remount it again tomorrow with a latex tube inside. 

If these don't loosen up and if I get a flat out in the field I am screwed.  They're way harder than any trainer tire I've ever put on. 

Bob Irwin

I've had trouble getting them on the first time on my 404's. Always had to use a tire iron and it was still very difficult. The guy at the bike store told me to leave the part by the valve until last. That way you can push the tube up to minimize the chance of pinching the tube, and push the tube up away from the bottom of the rim to give yourself the maximum room. That has worked for me. It's easier the second time, but I still need a tire iron - never been able to just use my hands like Matt. I've never tried a narrower tire on my Zipp rims, but I imagine it would be more difficult. I used to use 20's on some old trek wheels I had two bikes ago, and they were more difficult than the 23's.

Al Truscott

I am currently riding with Vittoria Corsa 20s on my Zipp 404 front wheel. Due to multiple maladies (arthritis, nerve damage), my hands are no longer strong, and I use tire irons ("tire plastics"?) for all tires and wheels these days, so I've learned how to be careful with them, and have not ripped a tube in more than a decade. I just keep sliding the tire iron along the rim under the exposed tire edge, and flip it up and over the rim every centimeter or so. I go very slowly and deliberately, as if I'm doing surgery.

The Vittorias are EASIER for me to get on and off than Conti 4000 and Michelin Pros - which were impossible to get off, requiring me to cut the tire eventually.

Also, I tried these little things which pop into spoke holes to help increase the space inside for the tube, but I kept getting pinch flats from the tbe getting trapped between the button and the rim, so I've gone back to rim tape.

mancona

@Jim, wow, if it was harder then a trainer tire I would be worried as well. Like I mentioned my 4 vittoria tires have all been significantly easier to put on then a yellow conti trainer tire. I would try a few more times to see if you can get them to lossen up.... I hope the vittoria didn't change anything and make the tires fit tighter.

For the trainer tire I have to use a tire lever and have never once been able to do it without, but the vittorias I almost always can get with just my hands even if they are new.

I used to have a much harder time but I think my technique has improved over the years. check out this ttbikefit video for some tips: http://www.youtube.com/user/ttbikefitdotcom#p/u/36/OhiL9qmBxsY

jmoss70

I'm confident in my abilities to change flats, mount and unmount tires, etc.  I've done it a lot in my basement and in the field.  The Conti trainer tire was by far the hardest until I bought the Vittoria Open Corsa tires.  Todd's instructional video provided some good reminders though. 

Update on these Vittoria Open Corsa tires with Zipp wheels (specifically Clincher 404, 808, etc).

1.  Pedros levers are your best bet.  I went to the bike shop and bought three kinds of levers - Pedros, Bontrager and No Name Generic.  The Pedros give you the best precision to get under the tire without making contact with the latex tube AND the best leverage to get the bead ON or OFF. 

2.  I used two Pedros levers to get the tire on and off.  I found the spacing to be the key.  Getting the tire off I inserted BOTH levers about 3 inches apart under the bead and gently lifted the bead off the rim with BOTH at the same time.  This worked very well, didn't comprimise the latex tube and left me with enough bead off to be able to slide one lever towards me and begin removing the rest of the bead.

3.  I found PULLING the lever towards me was much easier than pushing it away to remove the rest of the bead.  

4.  Getting the bead back ON I found that inserting the levers near the middle of the remaining bead was easiest.  It still took two levers to get the bead back on.

5.  Other tips:  A poster on ST said with his Vittoria Open Corsas and Zipp 808s he mounts both tires WITHOUT tubes the first time.  He removes them and reinstalls them 3-4 X over and over to loosen them up.  Leaves them ON without the tubes overnight and then installs the tubes the next day.  This worked okay for me.  I found them a little looser, but not a ton.  Another tip is even if you aren't using them or riding them yet still pump them up to 120 max pressure every day.  This will keep them stretched. 

After using the Pedros levers I am now at least less afraid of having to do this in a race. 

jmoss70

Rode this setup (Zipp 808s, Vittoria Open Corsa, Latex Tubes) this morning for the first time.  Wow, I was pretty blown away by the feel this provides out on the road.  35 miles I would say is a good "break in ride" for this setup.  Was running them @ 110 psi front/back.  Felt like I could maybe go a little lower and get even a more luxirous ride.  Wondering what others are running these at on a Zipp clincher setup?  

Bomber

I just installed a brand new pair of Vittorias on my 404's this weekend - replacing GP4000s'.... I did not find them any harder to install than other tires...

They feel great and fast - even though I initially installed them with butyl tubes...will change to latex closer to my race..

mancona

Posted By Jim Moss on 07 Jun 2011 12:30 PM

Rode this setup (Zipp 808s, Vittoria Open Corsa, Latex Tubes) this morning for the first time.  Wow, I was pretty blown away by the feel this provides out on the road.  35 miles I would say is a good "break in ride" for this setup.  Was running them @ 110 psi front/back.  Felt like I could maybe go a little lower and get even a more luxirous ride.  Wondering what others are running these at on a Zipp clincher setup?  

 

I agree, the feel of the vittoria tires are awesome.  I have only rode one set of race tubies and the ride of these clinchers was just as good or better.

I ran up to 116 front and rear on the Zipp alloy clinchers.  If it was wet or crappy roads i went closer to 110.  Keep in mind I'm 135lbs.

Beth_S

I've skinned my knuckles putting on a new set of Vittoria Corsa CXs. They are much, much easier to put on the second or third time.

 

jmoss70

Pedros levers are the key.  I literally tried all brands.  Pedros rock.

rob allen

@Jim- I hear you on this one. I just got my first pair of these and broke three levers on them this week. The 20 is especially hard to get off. I absolutely cannot pull or push the levers. It is just a matter of very slowly working it back and forth a centimeter at a time. I have changed lots of tires and have never doubted my ability to do so until now. It sounds like others have had a much easier time. I am wondering if its not an off run or something. Anyone else having troubles.

delesh

I mount a race set of tires on a spare set of wheels that I dont use. This allows them to stretch out before a race and give me some peace of mind about changing them if I needed to.

gschlossnagle

Where do folks buy your latex tubes?

jmoss70

@ Rob what David said.  Mount those suckers without tubes on the wheel and let it sit overnight.  Mount/unmount a few times to stretch it out.  Without a tube you can get pretty ugly with the tire and not worry about slashing a tube.

@ George I bought Vittoria latex tubes at my LBS.  They have the same ones at Trisports.com.  Get out your wallet. 

jmoss70

@ Matt - one last question about this setup...I ordered 23s for both Front & Rear.  I didn't really think this one through before I ordered.  I guess my question is...did I make a big mistake not having a 20 on the Front?  If I understand correctly I believe I'm giving up some aero but also getting better rolling resistance.  Right?  Also, with the pain I've had getting 23s on I'd be pretty worried (even though we're talking tire width) that getting a 20 on would be next to impossible.

 

timdawg7

@George- I looked for latex tubes at several shops in the Rockville, MD area and couldn't find one that sells them. Even a high end shop like Conte's didn't even carry them. I ordered mine online from probikekit.com.

mancona

@Jim, you are correct. 20mm front is more aero, with 19 being ideal for an alloy zipp clincher and 21 for a carbon clincher. You lose a very small bit of drag but gain more ride comfort and an easier tire to put on. Some say the 20s rolling resistance is not as good but I don't recall data to support that and when I asked the zipp guys they felt correct air pressure and latex tubes made more of a diffence in rolling resistance then 21 vs 23. You will be just fine with the 23 up front even though the 20 may have been a second faster as you are at the point that these details are lost in the noise anyway.

jmoss70

Put 35 miles on them on Tuesday.  Ride quality was excellent.  I can see why everyone is all lathered up about this combination.  Having a hard time getting past the "hope I don't flat" thing.  I keep telling myself that if I'm going to flat on a Vittoria Open Corsa I likely would have flatted on a GP4000 as well (which is what I used to ride/race).  I also don't recall the roads in CDA to be all that bad.  Cetainly not as bad as St. George or Wisconsin.

 

 

mattsull

I've been riding on them for the last month in the Chicago area. The roads are not that good at all. No issues.

Jeff Unruh

Do the Vittoria have replaceable cores? The Michelin's do NOT and that was all I saw in stock at PBK...

timdawg7

Do the Vittoria have replaceable cores?

Jeff- The Vittoria tubes do have removable cores. How is that helpful? Do you replace them? Why?

jmoss70

Yes.  Vittoria latex (pink tubes) have removable valve cores.

jmoss70

Gotta be able to remove the valve cores to use the good kind of valve extenders. 

Paul Hough

The following is from "Ask Josh" on the Zipp website re tire selection. However, there was nothing that indicated he was referring only to the Firecrest rim...sounds like he's talking 404 period...only the old 440s should use 19mm. Read on...

"I can tell you that we are recommending to our pro teams as well as pro-triathletes to run 21mm tires with both 808's and 404's, and NOT to run 18 or 19mm tires. We have seen no repeatable aero advantage in using 19 or even 18mm tires with these new rim shapes (though with the new 404, there was a slight tendency for increased drag with the 19mm tire, and feel that the increased ride harshness, reduced contact patch, increased rolling resistance and so on associated with narrower tires just can't really be justified on either of these rims.
Now, if you are running an H3, old Zipp 440, Campy Bora or Reynolds wheel, then we have definitely seen advantages in the wind tunnel to running 18 or 19mm tires over 21 or 22mm tires, and I would strongly recommend them for those applications from a pure speed perspective, but with the newer Zipp rim profiles, I can honestly say use a 21mm at a slightly lower pressure, and save yourself the added harshness of the high tire pressure as well as gaining back some improved handling and still maximizing aero benefits. These latest generation wheels have been fully designed around 21-22mm tires, so you can be confident that you are not sacrificing any performance with them."

I would also recommend reading the article on Vertical Compliance by Jordan Rapp in the Jun/Jul 11 issue of Lava Magazine.