Yet Another Noob Roadie Cycling Question - Dancing On The Pedals?

John Stark

OK, so I have been practicing getting out of the saddle (dancing on the pedals) going up hills and shifting, etc. on my new road bike.  I am getting better and better and shifting is now smooth, for the most part.  However, in another thread Coach P said something along the lines of, "getting out of the saddle and getting to that place where you can be there all day."  All I know is that after 20 seconds or so my heart rate catches up, my quads start to burn and I MUST sit back down on the saddle before I pass out.  

So, is this something you learn/adapt to over time?  Or am I doing something incorrectly? 

Any suggestions on getting better at this?

Thanks.

tuckerm

I'm thinking you Mr. Stark, may be too big to be dancing on the pedals  

I'm right there with you, would love to hear a good answer for this.

Al Truscott

A few years ago, I read an article where Johan Bruyneel, or someone like him, positied that there was a ht/wt above which most riders would want to stand while will riding uphill, and below which most would want to stay seated. There was a middle ground which inlcuded many riders on the pro tour. I'm a lean guy, and my ratio was in that middle ground, so someone like you, John, (not saying you're too big, just not lean enough) may indeed be more comfortable staying seated. It might take a w/kg of 5.0 for you to get to that place of comfort, and maybe for a Shleck, they only need 4.5 w/kg.

Coach Rich

My notes:

• In my experience, little guys stand more often, longer than big guys. Sawiris is down, now he's up, now he's down again...he's all over the place.
• People have a climbing style they like. I'm a tempo climber. Think Jan Ulrick to Lance or other little guys. I settle into an effort, try to stay relaxed, and generally climb my own climb. I may be working very, very hard, but I just do better when I pick the effort. I don't do well when I'm forced to respond the effort surges of others. I usually just rely on the fact that I'm pretty good at knowing what my limit is for a climb of length x, sit there, and bank on them coming back to me. It usually works.
• But lately, like in the last 6wks or so, I've suddenly become pretty good at standing at a very high effort, sit down and go right back to this steady effort above. Pretty cool skill, dunno if I'd use it on race day, but it's good to have.

There are different flavors of standing:

• To change position, same watts as when you're seated: shift up 1-2 gears, then stand. Going up a couple gears when standing is very important. I like to think about keeping my weight directly over the pedals and my back pretty straight. I imagine that this back straight thing has me pushing the pedals down with my body weight vs legs. Upper body is very relax, you're not muscling the bike. There should be very little side to side movement. I'll keep my hands mostly open, open and close my fingers, and in general stay very relaxed.
• To put out more watts (maybe 30-40) than you would sitting at what feels like a more comfortable, easier effort. Changes position too: same as above but I don't worry so much about the back thing. I just get on it a bit more but I'm still very relaxed. Like Al said, there is a combination of body type, body weight, experience, skill, and range of this increased watts that is very individual. For example, I can be working pretty hard at about 290w (about 95-97%) and I can stand like this above and go up to about 320-330w. It "feels" about the same effort and I can do this for 20-30" without paying to much for it when I sit back down. I've dialed in the effort that I can increase by standing, then sit down and go right back to this 290w above.
• Shorter surges: increase by 100+w. Same stuff as above but I'm really getting on it. I know pretty much to the second how long I can do this and sit back down and go right back to that tempo effort above.
• Ludicrous Watts: just stand and get some! Fun stuff! Town line sprints, coming around friends for no apparent reason...it's all good!

mancona

I never really thought about this until you posted it John, but now you have me thinking. Keep in mind my size.

My experience is similar to Rich and the two reason I usually stand is A) to strech in which case my power stays the exact same and RPE is the same or slightly less or to generate more more up a hill or quickly accelerating which of course has a hihger RPE. I assumed that the higher RPE was simply becuase I'm putting more power out and had nothing to do with where I was sitting or standing. In otherwords actually standing vs sitting seems to make very little differene to me.

I just haven't spend enough time on the road bike climbing yet to really form a solid opinion as our climbs are so short in the midwest. I also may have a biased view due to my size.

On a related note, I do have a good bit of experience on the TT bike. I have noticed that as I got lighter and stronger I have a feeling of floating when I am hammering on my TT bike. In otherwords when I am at FTP in my aerobars it feels like there is little to no weight on my saddle and I am more or less hovering over the seat. Therefore I would beleive Al's comments (not that I woudln't trust Al anyway) and think that at some combination of size and power the amount of force down on the pedals is enough to keep your body somewhat elevated. Not sure if I explained that right, basically when riding easy I can feel my weight on the saddle but when I start to ride harder I'm not actually sitting on the saddle anymore. This may also be why I can ride litterally on the tip of the nose of the saddle when hammering and it doesn't bother me one bit.

Coach Rich

Yeah, when I weighed 128lb...in 8th grade...I found the same thing when riding my Schwinn 10spd to swim practice...

Norton

John,

When I'm riding with others during brevets I find the smaller guys/gals are the ones out of the saddle consistently. I'm standing only to get over that stupid steep wall OR to "air" things out. Having said that I'm training to be able to spend more time out of the saddle, if only to give myself another position to break up the time.

Scott Alexander

6'1" @ 205lbs (currently), so YEAH I'm a big guy...undoubtedly bigger than you John! I love getting out of the saddle for a short duration intense effort. The HR shoots up, of course, and very shortly after I must settle down again.

Over the last few years on the roadie, I've tried to climb out of the saddle more and more, messing with the body position as I do it, to minimize the HR spikes. Had some luck, but mostly just learned that I cannot sustain out of the saddle intense efforts for too long. If I want to go slower and more steady out of the saddle, I can do that too, but it's not nearly as fun (read: slower).

With anything tho, you get more experienced and efficient, so keep at it! Wish I had some of those NorCal mountains out here in TX to play with! ENjoy! (pun intended)

Chris G

I find that I stand more for a change of pace than anything else on long climbs. It is much more comfortable to do on my road bike than tri bike BTW. That is really the only advantage to the road bike on climbs for me. As rich says there are a couple of flavors. Drop a couple gears and go about the same watts just with a lower PE for a bit, stand to crush some watts over a short climb or stand in the granny to keep from falling over. I pretty much never stand on the flats or sprinting but then I suck at that anyhow. Enjoy the new bike mr stark. Seems like you are drastically over thinking some of this. It's supposed to me fun.

John Stark

Thanks, Guys.  I had to giggle this morning reading this thread as those that know me know I have ALWAYS bitched and moaned about climbing on a bike.  And all I have ver had is a tri bike.  And here I am posting about how to get out of the saddle and climb properly.    I can safely say that after hearing for years that climbing on a road bike is WAY easier than a tri bke, I can concur.  It's way more fun, too.  When I am riding now I am always looking around for a climb.  Go figure.

Also, descending is way more fun on a road bike as well.  Tom Glynn and I rode up Mt. Diablo the other day and on the way back down Tom said, "you are like 15 mph faster now going down."  Not sure it is that fast, but I am (safely) flying down.

Chris, I don't believe I am over thinking it.  I just want to understand and be a better cyclist.  

Based on the your comments, I think I am doing a few things wrong:  1) I may be leaning too far forward when I am standing  2) I am definitey spiking watts when I am standing.  Riches "short surges."  3)  Definitely not shifting up first.

I am riding with a roadie group tonight and we are doing some climbing.  I will tinker and use your suggestions and report back.

 

Lastly, I know Al's comments were in a good spirit and I apprecaite that, but when someone says I can't do something because of X it just irks the shit outta me.    So I went into Data Tool and tinkered and to get to a w/kg. of 5.0 I need to have an FTP of 300 and weight of 132 lbs.    So lose 72 lbs. and gain 37 more watts and I will be golden.  Time to fire up the LoseIt app.  

 

John

chris malone

Sit and spin, big boy. Power from the seat. Nice smooth round cadence. Watch the old TdF's of Jan Ulrich climbing. He was considered big for a guy who could really climb.
No dancing and shit. Just awesome, seated, efficient climbing. And doped up, but still.....you can do it riding clean I think.

John Stark

Went out on the roadie ride tonight.  1:29:40 @ .916 IF and 241 NP.    Had a blast in the paceline and held my own in the peloton.  Even pulled a couple of times in spots where I knew I could hold the pace for 4 or 5 minutes.

We had one 4 mile up and back climb where I let the group go and practiced getting outta the saddle.  I really focused on not spiking watts when I got up and that made a big difference.  I practiced standing for a couple of 30" sections, then a couple for 45" and then got to 1 minute and that was it.  I also did some short "bursts" up a couple of short, steep climbs where a Cat 3 and a Cat 4 rider would jump and it was all I could do to hang on, outta the saddle, ready to blow a lung.

Not sure I am able to stand completely over the pedals.  Maybe because I am so tall and I have to bend over more to reach the handlebars?  But I am thinking I can practice this in the trainer where it is safer?

Overall, I am happy with taking what you all talked about below and applying it tonight.  I think I can master "dancing" but I need to adapt some muscles and pactice A LOT more.  Maybe not doing it "all day long," but i will be able to do it smoothly and not look like a "Fred."

Thanks everyone.

John Stark

FYI - I am now standing and shifitng and turning at the same time.    And I gotta say that my quads and VMO are trashed.  Did a lot of practicing over the weekend and they are tenderized today.  Good stuff.

Coach Rich

Yep, fun to get better on the road bike. Make sure you're working on your "tells:" little movement, technique things that tell the people around you that you're working hard...you don't want any . Mine are (ie, what I do so people don't know I'm working):

• Elbows in, arms relaxed
• Don't raise/lower head. That is some people will drop their heads as they work real hard, then pick it up, put it back down again...screw that, you're just riding along, no need to bob your head...
• No rocking of the upper body. Same deal as above. Don't start to pull on the bars with each pedal stroke to gain leverage. Sorta ok if you're on a bitchin' steep climb and have run out of gears but, in general, upper body rocking is a sure sign that someone is on the rivet. That's not you, you're always JRA

 

Coach Patrick

Make sure you are standing and getting your shoulders OVER the handlebars so your arms are kinda locked out. The quads burn if you stand over the seat, ergo have to use your legs to hold you up and to power the bike (ouch!). Once you are standing proud over your bars, you can begin to work your arms side to side by pushing your elbows in (arms straight) to find a nice rhythm!

Here's a good image where she has her weight in front of saddle, etc: http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232fp733:;>nu=3348>594>5:2>WSNRCG=3635944349337nu0mrj

Nemo Brauch

My thoughts and observations:

1- Hmmmm, well, climbing on a hill out of the saddle would first mean I'd need a big enough hill around here! I just don't get much opportunity for that kinda riding
2- As a little peep- I guess I should have been out of the saddle most of my time at TOC, but I'm more of a sit and spin kinda gal. I am obviously not meeting the standard!
3- Big Props to Coach P for the proper climbing position image.....with a chick!! Nice!