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Nutrition on 4-4.5 hour rides

This is my first cycle on the IM plan, havin done the HIM plan twice before.  The HIM plan long rides are 3 hours, and these are 4.0-4.5 in general.

I'm generally a low-calorie intake guy.  On the three hour rides, I routinely packed 450 calories (150/hour) of InfiniT and never had any problems.  I raced Kansas 70.3 and only took in 350 calories on the bike segment, and everything went fine on the bike and then on the run with a gel at the beginning and PowerGatorPerformAde (or whatever it's called) along the way.  I weigh something like 145 lbs.

Today though, was my first 4 hour ride (4:15 in the end) on the plan and by the four hour mark, I felt bonked as well as tired (~270 TSS), having brought my standard 150 cal/hour.. I chose that because of the high intensity of most of the ride anyway, but obviously it didn't work too well.

Is it to be expected that the 4 hour ride vs 3 hour ride taxes the nutrition/glycogen? Is it the norm for people to train those longer rides with race-type nutrition even though the intensity is higher than a race type ride?  If so, I assume something like 225 cal/hour (close to what I'll race at) should be good to try for next time...but I'm open to input.

For the record, it wasn't a total disaster or anything...just concerning and maybe not my best the last half hour of the ride. After I got back  I ate a slice of bread, waited 10-15 min, and went out and got the run done fine, including the MP segment..

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Comments

  • I tend to eat something before I head out and then just take water for the first hour. I'll then do about one bottle per hour (250 cal) for the next two hours and then just water for the third. I carry another serving of powder with me just in case, but it really depends on the temperature as to whether or not I'm that drained.
  • I pretty much follow the same nutrition protocol for training as I do for racing. That's 250 cal/hr of Infinit and/or gel. I use this system for rides of any length regardless of the intensity. Works for me and I know it will work on race day. I keep a couple different flavors of Infinit on hand as well as a variety of gel flavors. I have been experimenting a bit with taking in more calories. I've taken in 300/cal/hr on a couple rides and that worked well. The jury's out on a final decision though.

    Sometimes I eat before but not always.

  • When I get into a ride of over 3 hours I add food along with the liquid mixes. Accerlraid is my drink as well, I concentrate it to be a two hour bottle then three hour an so on, sip it washing it down with water.
    I will eat a half of a half bagel with peanut butter on it about hour into the ride then eat the other half about another hour / hour 15 min later.
    I will not have food 1 hour before I know I'm getting off the bike. I then switch to gels/ power shots every 30/45 min on the run.
    Sometimes I will use Cliff bars or an Atkinson bar on the bike to mix it up. For me I know eating on the bike is a good thing in small moderations.
  • William Jenkins asked:  Is it to be expected that the 4 hour ride vs 3 hour ride taxes the nutrition/glycogen?

    In short, yes!  The body has the ability to store only so much glycogen.  If you ride 3 hours at intensity "X" plus take in "X" amount of cal/hour you may not use all of your stored glycogen and immediate use blood sugars that have been translated into energy.  If you ride for 4 hours at the same intensity and take in the same amount of calories per hour, it is conceivable that your nutritional intake is less than your glycogen usage resulting in a glycogen deficit (i.e. BONK!!!) 

    As a diabetic, I had to test, test, test.  Whereas some athletes record their statisical data related to watts and all of the other related data, we may not maintain a nutritional diary or record nutritional intake and how we feel at the end of a ride.  Each person's body is different and thus nutritional intake and needs are different.  You will need to work at what cal/hr work best for you without shutting down your stomach. 

    You described at the end of your ride ;that you ate a slice of bread and then felt fine.  It might indicate that your glycogen was depleted.  In a similar fashion, I took a scientific approach by measuring out nutritional powders into packets, measured blood sugar levels before, during and after bike rides and runs.   I found that after my nutritional intake stopped, my blood sugar levels were typically in the 200 range.  Within 30 to 45 minutes, my blood sugar would drop to below 75.  I was heading into hypoglycemic (low blood sugar) "bonk" ranges.  You raised your blood sugar by taking in nutrition (i.e. the bread).  White bread translates into blood sugar quickly because it is a flour based product.  What you experienced/demonstrated was the importance of post workout nutrition.

    Again, test your nutrition.  I hope this helps!  If you continue to have difficulty, you may consider working with a sports nutritionist. 

    Blessings!

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

  • I use concentrated infinit - 225 - 250 calories per hour. I like to keep the calories and hydration separate so that I can control them independently as temperature, how I feel, etc. change.
  • Thanks all (lovely detail, Rich!). I'm well acquainted with the whole glycogen/metabolism issue. I was just surprised to bonk at 4+ hours on the bike, when I'd been able to go 3 hrs bike plus run 0.5-1 hour on the same recipe.

    I guess part of what I learned was that I was running a fine line before... but doing it well. Will definitely bump it up and see how it goes!

    For my first IM a couple of years ago (Pre- EN), I don't remember being that careful about nutrition, but the long rides were (unsurprisingly) all pretty easy intensity. :-)

  • That's an amazingly good explanation, Rich.

    That four-hour mark is tough for me, too.  Last year, I usually took in a caffeinated gel or found a vending machine coke around the 3.5 hour mark and was a much happier cyclist (and brick runner).

     

  • Get used to concentrating infinit.  Makes your life really easy.  Put tons of calories in a bottle.  When you get used to taking it super concentrated it is even easier when it is less so.  I have put 1000 calories in a regular bottle before, its pretty think but doable.

    All that said when I go on long rides these days I tend to be really non anal or scientific about it.  Never carry more than 2 bottles.  One usually with infinit for a couple hours, the other gatorade or perform or whatever.  Then I stop at a gas station and buy whatever I feel like.  Usually end up with red bull and orange gatorade mixed, some times i pound a frappacino or eat a candy bar.  I think it pays to be very flexible as I know that I can get away with taking in whatever in case [or really when] the shit hits the fan on race day.

     

  • If it's just a 4 hour ride with no run attached, I'll just do up a 2.5 hour Infinit mix because I will have some breakfast in my system. I'll just take water for the first hour and then start hitting the calories. If there's a run attached, I'll bump up the calories some to get me through the run. I did a 2.5 hour bike this morning and I had a 1.5 hour Infinit mix. No run.
  • Yeah, Chris, a few years ago, when I was (intentionally) taking more calories (more like 300-350/hour), I used to make Perpetuem bottles that had the consistency of milkskakes or pancake batter. :-) I've gotten away from Perpetuen, although I think it's a very good product, for a variety of reasons, but I'm well acquainted with the concentrated bottle.

    In my "neighborhood" the best riding is - unfortunately from this standpoint - along rural roads with no convenience stores. Yesterday's ride was basically 0.5 mi out of my neighborhood, 10 mi norrth, 30 miles west, and turn around when it was time to come home. :-) For either hot weather or anything longer than that, I have to compromise and find some loop or something - or go on a route that goes through a bigger town - to pick up water along the way. I carry 4 bottles on my frame; I've carried two more in my jersey pockets, but I'm not a fan of doing that if I can avoid it.
  • In same boat William. I've made it a point to train the bike nutrition on long rides for I M training. Working on 300 cals/hr using conc infinit. Bottom line , I'd do on rides what you plan to do on race day.
  • On the EN long rides (mine are HIM so 3 hours but I have done a few 4-5 hour rides too), I generally eat some solid food after the z4 part of the workout is concluded. Usually a Nature Valley granola bar (190 cal). When I add that to 2 mid-ride gels and 3 Shot Bloks before I mount up, it ends up being about ~160-170 cal/hour.
  • I came close to bonking on the bike, but finished off the ride just in time. In the past for 3hr rides, I've taken 200 calories for training and 300 for racing. Yesterday for the 4 hour ride I upped it to 300 calories. This was my first 4hr ride I've done that hasn't involved a beer stop in the middle.

    My thoughts for having different amounts for training vs racing is that in training I didn't just finish a long swim, and I'm not following up with a long run. I'm afraid that if I used my amount of racing calories during training that I would take in too many. Thoughts?
  • The Saturday rides are harder than we race - often an hour of z4/z5, which has a much higher cost than the z2/z3 you'll race an IM/HIM in. With working harder than racing, I figure you need at least as many calories as when racing.
  • They're harder, but generally they are also shorter than your race. Generally I find it evens out, however, unlike RR and races where I'm starting my day with top calorie stores, it's more likely on a Saturday ride that I'm not, so I almost always bring a booster (and it's generally whatever I'm feeling at the moment - PBJ, gels, fruit-roll ups, etc) and when I can feel myself hitting that wall during the long ride (usually hr. 3-4) I take that.
  • Posted By George Schlossnagle on 26 Jun 2011 04:32 PM

    The Saturday rides are harder than we race - often an hour of z4/z5, which has a much higher cost than the z2/z3 you'll race an IM/HIM in. With working harder than racing, I figure you need at least as many calories as when racing.



    Good point.

  • And no matter what folks, you DO NOT WANT TO BONK ON YOUR TRAINING RIDE, as that means you are in a HOLE which you need to now recover from before you can really hit your next session well. A hard ride that you detonate yourself on b/c of poor nutrition means that you might miss a Sunday ABP and a Monday workout as well....be smart, don't BONK!
  • Thanks for making that point, Patrick.

    I was lucky. Not a major bonk. All good on Sunday.
  •  I also tried a concentrated bottle on a 4 hour ride last week and it worked well.  I made a 1000 calorie bottle for the downtube and had water in my other 3 bottles.  I drank 3/4 of it on the ride, then took one gel during the 1:00 run  afterwards.  I plan on upping it to 1250 for 5 hour rides.

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