The Running 2.5 hrs thing

trigirl1203

Now, I've read the wiki and all the information I could find, and I totally understand the rationale behind running a max of 2.5 hours during ironman training.  Yet, I have to ask for the runners that aren't doing sub 8 minute miles.  I am a slower runner, long runs between 9:30-10 min pace with all the different intervals, and for a 2 hour long run Im only hitting around 12 miles.  So give another 30 minutes, 3 more miles max, Im at 15 miles.  I see all these postings with people doing their long runs of 2 hrs and hitting 16 miles already, and Im nervous that with a max of 15 miles during training, the last 11.2 miles of that Ironman run is going to be even tougher than what it already is. 

Im just looking for some insight, from fast or slow runners, on this EN way.  Im nervous, this is my first ironman EN style, so will be my first ironman without a 20 mile run before.   

Thanks in advance!

 

Gordon Cherwoniak

Lauren,

I'm definitely not fast the key here is the negative effects going beyond 2.5 hours on the run will have for your training and increase the risk of injury.  If you get to 15 or 16 for the long runs you will be fine.  Yes the last 6-8 will hurt but they do for everyone.  That's why everything you do is to get you to mile 18 of the run. 

As a side note I did Lake Placid in 2004 on a long run of 6-7 miles and you have done much more that this.  Stick to the plan.  The time for getting more speed and longer distances will be in the upcoming OS.

Gordon

ghernand

Hi Lauren:

I am a dedicated runner.  Running is like a religion to me.

IM distance running is not a typical run, especially amongst those that run your speed.  Basically, if you follow the 4 keys on race day, you'll be zooming thru the run in comparison to everyone else. 

The 2.5hr runs are not easy to do, if you stick to the assigned intervals, and all the other workouts.  The key in the 2.5hr runs is the change in pace during the intervals.  try your best to nail those intervals and then keep moving in between without walking.  the mental fortitude that it takes to stick to the assigned 2.5hr run is what you'll need on race day, NOT a 20mile slow run.

If you have the opportunity and there is enough time in your build to wisconsin, get a vdot from a 13.1 race.  this will give you the most accurate pacing numbers for race day and the intervals on the long runs.

My technique allows me to run a lot and not have joint issues, plus i really enjoy running, so when i do hack the training plan, i simply add more intensity and miles to the shorter runs, but i never add more miles to the long runs for IM training.

Sorry to be long winded, but I am on vacation from training until july 11 (just completed IMCdA) and i already miss it!!!

good luck at your race!!!

GH

 

 

 

Paul Hough

Lauren, I fully understand the 2.5 hr max thing, but frequently pitch that limit out the window. I simply cannot execute the EN approach in Tampa's summer...flat not possible regardless of mental fortitude. In the winter, I can do the 3x10min Z3 and 30min Z2 etc. with no problems. But in the summer, my heart rate can spike off Z "0.5" on a jog no matter how slow I go. Yet, even a long SLOW run builds resiliency. For a contrary viewpoint on the long run for IM trianing, I recommend you read the article at http://triathlon.competitor.com/2010/07/training/determining-your-long-training-run-for-any-triathlon-distance_7237. For a quality run, 10 miles is about my limit in the Tampa summer. So I've been experimenting with some doubles like 10 mi in the morning and 8 miles that night. We'll see how it works when I race in August. BTW, when I do go over 2.5 hours, I do it on a dirt trail to minimize the pounding. I'm back the next day. If you do choose to go over 2.5 hrs you may be increasing your risk of injury. I don't buy that concern for myself because I've been running since I was a kid and have extensive experience with volume. But splitting it in two parts for one day may be an option.

Coach Rich

Lauren,

Do

Not

Run

Longer

Than

2.5hrs

Period

If you were running 12' miles in these long runs I say you "might" want to run 1 x 3hr run, but more for confidence reasons.

I just finished a 2:15 run that only got me 15 miles. But I run it on a course that is what I need, regardless of how far I do/don't get: 7.5 miles up, with about 2/3 of that on a dirt trail and/or straight up. About 3.5 miles of the "up" is at what feels like marathon pace. Pace however is like 10:30/mi because, again, I'm going straight up. Flip it and come down. I run conservatively on the downhill because of my issues with feet, ankles, etc. When I get on the flat I drop into MP and try to finish strong and am right now focused on recovering for tomorrow. But the run, regardless of the pace or distance, is what's right for me and I'll be able to knock out another ~7 miles tomorrow and then carry on with my cycling for the weekend, and so on and so on.

The nature of this trail is that I might be able to squeeze another mile out of it so, at most a 17 mile run that would probably take me 2:30-35. I have absolutely zero concerns about the distance I'm running. The nature of the course keeps me healthy and ensures I'm able to do everything else downstream in my schedule.

Finally, 95% of the people struggling on the IM marathon aren't doing so because they didn't train properly, run enough, to an X long run vs a Y. Rather, they've hammered those nails into their coffins on the bike course and early in the run...but we don't talk about that because everything comes down to the 15' you did or didn't run in 1-2 long runs in your training, or some other training issue...right? Can't be because I don't know how to race...right?

Nate Parady

The folks who have already answered have more experience than me...All i can say is that for my ramp up to Lake Placid I have put my trust into RnP for many things to include the 2.5 hour run (which have actually turned into 2:23 and 2:20). I've covered just over 16 miles each time.
From the beginning of my IM prep, I have always kept Saturday and Sunday in mind while running the Thursday long runs . I know that if I pushed to hard or go over target plan i might be toast for the all important weekend bike rides.

Shaughn Simmons

Listen to the wisdom in this thread and they will all be coming back to you during the race..................

GregSVan

Wonderful timing for this thread. I am one of the slowest runners ever, only getting in about 17 miles during that 2.5 hour run. Everyone has already ready  seen my horrible numbers from the run at CDA, and I have been wondering for the past few days where I should begin in analyzing my run training. I know I had a hard time because of all the problems on the bike, but I am looking at everything.

What I gather from above is that I should definitely shoot down the idea of making sure I run more like 20 miles or something. Can do. Some of my stellar runners at work are saying I should stay low but maybe get better intensity like Rich was saying. Instead of running 9:00-10:00 for 2.5 hours, put in some more serious and more frequent speed work in there?

Also, after Im done recovering (2 weeks?). Should I restart back from scratch for Arizona, or put in longish runs earlier? Thanks!

And yes. Im running and riding outside. And swimming too actually.

tuckerm

@Lauren, like Greg and Gil I too just completed IMCDA. I never ran over 17-18 miles before in my life. As I entered the run, like Greg, I had some issues too, I worried a little how I would react having never done the distance. Especially in a non-IM setting. Never done an open marathon either. Well my last 6 miles were my fastest miles. So I think it works. Listen to Rich and the others. You will be fine.

Shaughn Simmons

Ist Ironman, never in my life had run a marathon.  Never ran more than 18 miles during training, however, I did stay true to the plan - very consistent with hitting plan workouts, intervals, etc across the board.  During race day, Rich looked me in the eyes and said "Do everything we have told you to do in terms of pacing, nutrition, etc.  I listened, ran the entire marathon without stopping - 4:15 / 12:05 total time.......the wisdom works........IMLV 2009

Gordon Cherwoniak

Greg,

I've never done 2 IM's in one year.  I'd start another thread on this one or ping the coaches in the macro thread.  I believe that Dave Tallo has done double several times he'd be a great guy to get in this conversation. 

My thoughts are that after you recovery the transition back to training especially running is the big challenge.  I don't think 20 weeks would be needed and perhaps you could focus the first weeks with a little more intensity, a run focus, a bike focus or perhaps both.  Just remember this is a long season and the goal is to get to the finish line at IMAZ.  The time for true speed work is in the upcomging OS. 

Gordon

Swanie

1st ...You spend money every month on Endurance Nation, hopefully because you believe in the EN way. So believe in the EN way! Rich knows what he is talking about. When he responds to your post the way he did, he probably want to get your attention.

2nd...You CANNOT simulate the Ironman run even if you ran 5 hours on your long runs. The Ironman run sucks and it is athlete that can turn him/herself inside out for the longest time that does well in the run.

3rd...Concentrate on the speed portions of the scheduled runs while getting in the durations and you WILL do well in your Ironman. Make a "run time" goal for your "1 thing" and at T2 you lazer focus on the required paces to make that one happen after mile 18.

 

afrost

@Lauren let me put your mind to rest. 2.5 hours and 15 miles completed is totally FINE!!! I have done 4 IM races before this year. I have only ever once run over 2:30 (2:45). In my 2:30 runs, I generally would cover 16 miles. So I am no speed demon. These were non EN runs too - just go out and slog away for 2:30 - no intervals, no hard work. Just 16 miles. I have IM marathon times of 4:17; 4:20; 4:05; and 4:02. You will be totally good to go - especially because you are doing all the added work in these EN long runs. Don't be tempted to run any more than what you can get done in 2:30. Like everyone else says: You will do great!

---Ann.

GregSVan

Great input guys. Thanks for your help and I'll let you know how things go after the transition period.

Bruce Thompson

@ Lauren - I've run both open marathons and just completed IM CDA.  While my IM run wasn't as fast as my open marathons, I had plenty of gas in the tank (ran my fastest 10k split from mile 20 to the IM finish) by following the EN plan.  I concur with the advice to follow the 2.5 hour run as detailed in the plan.  As Gilberto said, the key is to try to hit the intervals within the long run.  It is the intervals that give you the strength physically and mentally to handle the final miles of the IM run.  Then just execute your pacing and nutrition on race day per EN guidance and you'll be set up for a good result.  Trust the plan. It works. And this is from a marathoner who seriously doubted that I would be adequately prepared with  "just a 2.5 hour training run".  Good luck.