If EN Is About Time-Effective Training, Why Are My Coaches Doing 30 Hours A Week?
Undoubtedly some of you have done the math on what Rich has been up to (he's been using high school calculus to track his first training camp), but you might not know that I have been doing a bit more than usual as well. Nothing too crazy, but from weeks 5 until today, exactly 2 weeks out, my overall volume has been high as well.
I used the Placid Rally and the Fuelbelt 150 rides as cornerstones to put in some serious work. I was running about 40 miles/week, swimming 4-5x, and biked about 275 a week. This was all compuned by packing/moving, of course, and so those numbers are a bit suspect (I think I only hit 240 this week).
So why all the volume?
#1 -- The Ironman Game has changed for the M30-49 window.
What used to get you to Kona, a low 10 hour event, now doesn't put you in the top 15...sometimes not even the top 20 on race day. This represents a huge shift in terms of competitiveness, and this volume is our attempt to go from perennial 10-hour IMers to 9:45ers.
#2 -- Volume Does Work / RnP As Lab Rats
As we've said before, volume does work if you can handle it in your life. How we approach intensity allows us to be wicked effective with our training year-round. In my world, I have been 100% EN up until the last 3 weeks of my year...so it's not like we are abandoning the EN framework.
We are actually exploring the effects of slightly bigger volume as added to the EN protocol for those athletes in the house on the pointy-end of the spectrum looking to make some significant performance gains. I worked it into my final build as part of my regular routine...Rich has been doing the volume but has now added a massive week-long mountain adventure. Bottom line is we wouldn't ask any of you to do something if we hadn't tried it ourselves.
#3 -- Because We Can
We both have high hopes for race day (and a little pressure to represent!)...but the bottom line is we both have the flexibility in our lives to put the volume in. Know that outside of my time training, I have minimal "hard" commitments that weigh on me. Rich also alternates time on a bike with time in a Lazy Boy chair, reclined of course.
#4 -- The Jury is Still Out
Sure the volume is impressive, but we still have yet to race. I personally have a pretty solid amount of fatigue right now that I need to carefully get rid of over the next few days so I can arrive in Placid ready to go. Rich has more time before Wisco, but has the equal challenge of processing the volume and finding a way to continue training.
Bottom line is, don't start thinking about quitting your job to become a mountain guide so you can train more...that's not what this is about. We'll have some more info/data for you guys as we go, in the meantime know that the EN plans and the EN way both WORK and will make you super strong and fast on race day!
Comments
My thought: getting to the really pointy end in any AG means you are aiming for the 98-99th percentile of IM racers, to say nothing of the general population. The goals are no longer about finishing, or even PRs. It's all about competing against what others are doing. That's a different frame of reference and requires a different training strategy than what the other 98% are doing. Whether EN as a coaching service should provide for those very few who both want to be and can be in that 1-2% is something you (the coaches) have so far decided against, but there is a market for it, small though it may be. Those few of us in EN who put ourselves into that category have been routinely experimenting with alterations (i.e., additions) to the standard training plan. I suspect it would be very difficult to design a "mass market" training plan for that purpose. But, there may be some value in sharing what individuals have done and learned, to see if there are common themes that can be used by others who want to travel on that route.
Makes perfect sense for the pointy end benefiting less from a mass market/large group (i.e., EN style group). Maybe better said, a mass market plan will do a good job meeting the needs for those "in the meat" of the bell curve.
Being more of a self coached athlete can work well for some so long as they have a support group (i.e., event specific coaches - namely swim).
i've been watching the trend in faster times over the years in that age group range, most recently at CdA 2011.
pretty amazing times. what jumps out is the consistency amongst the top 10 in that age group range. yes, the top 2 are usually way ahead by a lot (i.e. likely genetically gifted), but then there's that cluster from 3-12 (i.e. likely moderately gifted, but well trained) or so, where they are pretty solid across the board. no weak event, except maybe a 1:07ish swim.
these dudes are well rounded and don't make many mistakes.
at this point, it's pretty much about real racing where on one day someone has more luck or less doubt than the other guy.
whatever the result, i am sure RnP are having a great time accumulating the training time and fitness. i know i am!!! and i am only a top third age grouper!!!
gh
At IMCDA I stood at the corner for 7th and Sherman, where you turn to head towards the finish-line, for about 4hrs. At ~9:35-9:55 race time I saw a LOT of 30-49yo guys turn that corner. I know/know of a lot of these guys through my years of coaching. One swam with me at college (3yrs behind me). He went about 10:5x in '08. I passed him on the bike, said hi, and didn't see him again. He went 9:58 or so. He's coached by a former pro, who also raced IMCDA and went crazy fast. This pro runs in the circles of other coaches/athletes and I know the training volumes they put up.
The morning after the race I was in the line at Java, getting coffee, when two brothers said hi to me, asked me how the team went. They were very complimentary about EN, our podcasts, the work we do for the tri-space, etc. One lives in Atlanta, offered to lend me a bike next time I'm in town to visit my sister, etc. One brother won his AG, 45-49, with a 9:36. We talked about the training he does -- self-employed, kids are older and I think mostly gone from the house, regularly puts up 18-23hrs/wk with extended stretches of 25-29hrs.
So Tues after the race, PnI chatted on the phone about how the "KQ Game" has significantly changed and what/if EN should do anything about it. We discussed creating a KQ program:
Epic Camps:
Yep, I just finished a crazy high volume in the Sierra's. I'll debrief everyone later with my notes but to quickly answer the question of "why:"
In summary:
RnP:
sounds great, but good luck with trying to keep the keys to the sportscar!!!
might be better to just "legalize it" and avoid the headache or get advice from people with teenagers!
EVERYONE is going to want to be a Jedi.
G
I need to write down my thoughts as well, as K and I just finished a week on the IMOO course doing similiar stuff although about 1/2 the volume. I noticed I was gettign stronger throughout the week as the 'ride yourself into shape' has some truth.
The KQ will continue to change, it will truely, be a best of the best in the next couple of years as slots at each race narrow. It seems about 25 slots are being taken away as new Ironman events surfice each year. I think you'll see very few >10:00 qualifiers from the men which is cool but also scary if you want to play in the that sandbox.
All,
Thanks for understanding.
Personally, I think all of the age groups have gotten faster, but more so ~35-55, while at the same time the number of slots have been reduced:
As the number of guys in that second bullet grows, and the number of KQ slots available at each race decreases...10:20 just don't get it anymore. 9:50 don't get it anymore at some races. So in addition to the get-faster OS style training that we know works and fits perfectly with so many of you for so much of the year, there is also the other game that's played by the <9:50 crew for about 12wks/yr before an A-race. That's the training game that PnI have played in the past, know how to make it work, and are considering developing a suite of "stuff" to support that game...but admission to that Game will be invitation/application only. You pay us to coach you, not enable you to do stoopid stuff <img src="http://members.endurancenation.us/DesktopModules/ActiveForums/themes/_default/emoticons/biggrin.gif" alt="" />.
That said, I'd like to figure out a way to accommodate a slightly broader range of folks at these camps I'm scheming. For 9 days all I did was:
All in friggin' God's Country. Just stoopid.
I personally find, that, it is very hard to hit all the workouts as written. For me, being 49 yr old, the standard EN is plenty of work to absorb. Almost every time I try to add to the plan, I start not hitting the watts/pace targets.
I know RnP are Professionals, but, there lifestyle can take advantage of what they do. RnP have said that volume works, BUT, you must live and train like a Pro to make it possible. (See Richs typical day above)
I hit 16 hrs last week and really feel that's about all I can absorb.
As Jennifer said, it is definitely something very appealing as a camp. Of course, it will be a few years before I ever would be allowed to join. Hopefully by that time you will have found a way to include some beer!
I think Brendan hit the nail on the head here. It gets to a point of diminishing returns. Training 20+ hours a week not only takes away from other "real life" time because of the increased training hours, but also because of the increased admin time, recovery time, nutrition time, massage time, etc. that should accompany those increased training hours. This is not reflected in the hours tacked on to your training. It simply does not make sense to do more unless you live a pro lifestyle, and even then a top-tier pro lifestyle who does not depend largely on other sources of income.
And let's not forget that the jury is still out for RnP, as Patrick initially pointed out. I'm interested to see how this works out. I do not doubt that 20-30 hours a week can lead to good results. It's inevitable. But for the same individual, could 15-20 hours of week have led to the same--or dare I say--better results? Even some top pro's max out at less than the hours talked about in this thread. I think it was Pete Jacobs I remember being interviewed and saying he found out he responds better at "lower" training hours, like 17h a week or something, so he generally does not train above that.
I've taken two days off, will run 60' and ride 2-3hrs tomorrow, maybe swim. I'll let everyone know how it goes.
@Rich: true dat. Having an Epic Camp for a vacation or the like, doing what we love, beats being tied down at some resort/compound.
I guess the talk of the double-secret KQ plan has us (or at least me) guessing. There is a difference between "injections" of volume, a la Epic Camps, and consistently putting in 20-30 hours a week. The comments in this thread could get mixed up if we are not clear what we're talking about.
Good points from Pete and everyone else. These are my very quick thoughts:
Modifications I often make to the EN plans, to suit my volume/lifestyle opportunities:
In summary,
Finally, my experimentation with high volume training over the years has taught me this: there is definitely a combination of not enough volume and not enough intensity at which you're basically wasting your time. All of my rides last week were below ~72-73%. I probably never saw Z3 on the run. I was never shelled after any particular training session, as I often am after many of "our" workouts. Rather, I was generally just very, very tired and sleepy. But I put up 35hrs of that stuff...which is no joke. But if I had put up 17-20hrs at that intensity...not a problem at all and it would not have made me any faster. THAT is where I think many, many endurance athletes miss the boat: they are not going hard enough to get faster, but they also are not doing enough volume for their volume approach to work either. The net is that if you're doing this Z1-2 stuff, you're wasting a LOT of your time if you're doing less than about 20-22hrs/wk. Waste, meaning your ROI on race day, how much faster you get for the time you've invested, is very, very low. "Our" approach is much harder and more effective. Last Thurs or Friday I did the math on my week so far, realized I was at ~22-24hrs and was like...bleh...whatever, I don't feel so bad. Then I put up 12 or so in the last 3 days and that nearly pushed me off the cliff
While Rich gears up for his Epic Camps 2012, I send out this offer to any and all ENers doing late season races, to spend time with me during one of the two mountain training camps I'll be doing in prep for IM AZ. Get yourself there, and you've got a free place to stay and a guide to the roads around Aspen surrounded by all the mountain biking, hiking and gorgeous wilderness you can stomach. Dates are times I'll be there, guests welcome for any length of time.
• Aug 18th - Aug 31. This covers the week of the US Pro Cycling Challenge (Tour of Colorado), which will come screaming into Aspen 1200 meters down Independence Pass on Aug 24th.
• Sep 26 - Oct 11. Watch the Aspen trees turn gold.
Our house is at 8400', so you can get the "live high" boost.
I've thought about this a lot since last year. After IMWI I didn't want anything to do with my bike, so I pretty much just ran for 3 months. I didn't do anything specially structured, tossed in a bunch of interval work, ran long when I wanted, etc. But this year, when I started the OS and even into my training plan I saw a significant difference in my running. I definitely became faster, and more significantly, running became even easier. Thursday long runs barely faze me, and I can even do the interval training in significant heat. It was an interesting shift considering I was a pretty good runner even before I came to triathlon, so it wasn't that I didn't have a running background. I think that for those that want to do a focus without taking off an entire season to do it, a pre-OS option would be a good place to do it. And even if you didn't want a super-structured program, something outlining broad strokes to hit would be beneficial. After my A race in September I plan on trying out a shortened idea of this with the bike (shortened = how long I can ride outside in Chicago and Wisconsin before I turn into a popcicle). Oh and last year once I started the OS and had to start biking again, I noticed that I did not lose any significant power on the bike. Nothing that I didn't regain within a couple weeks of OS work. (This may vary depending on a person's bike level/abilities, my bike is never my strong point, so I'm not sure how "much" I had to lose. A better indicator will be to see if I lose run fitness/ability when focusing on biking this year- though unlike last I'm sure I'll run some since I enjoy it.)
@Al- What are the road conditions like the first week of October? Where do you fly into? Can I Take you up for just a 4-5 day camp? Is it tri-bike or road bike? Will I need a rental car?
I have no race approaching, but I am in good condition. Therefore, while I am there, I would be completely at your service (I.e. Carry bottles on bike and run, change your flats, clean bike between rides, etc.).
Sincerely, gh
First one, though, comes with urgency: come up with an official, snappy, EN-specific name for "Epic Camps" before that becomes the common parlance around here.
I know .... I'm guilty of calling my own big AZ weeks "Epic weeks." But I'm also aware that a few cult figure folks in triathlon - S Molina, Gordo, the Gordettes - have been using this for their adventures for years.
No, it's not protected intellectual property, but it seems to me that it would be like another coaching service starting to call what happens sometime after October but sometime before February the "Outseason."
"Rich S Porn Moustache Week" is too long, "Chamois Cream Week" is TMI, and "Big Bike Week" doesn't have the same gravitas as Epic. Thoughts?
Where else will you find someone like Al offering to share his home in Aspen with relative strangers. The vibe here is amazing and Al is extremely generous!
Awesomer Camp
High Sierra's High Volume Training Camp
Sierra's Endurance Adventure
or
Bucky Chablis Training Camp
Rich: when you finalize that deal with the t-shirt making people, you have to make the, "Bucky Chablis Training Camp" t-shirts for all attendees.
gh
@ Steve, GH (and anyone else): The offer is for as few or as many days as you want. Frontier (bikes go @ standard suitcase rates) flies to Aspen thru DEN, and that's the cheapest solution. Alternative is to rent a car, but not really needed - worst comes to worst and you want to go to town without me, the busses are free. I use my TT bike when there, but a road bike is probably a little more stable on the downhills. Hills are long, but not steep, though. During the first week of October, the weather is variable depending on the altitude. Down valley, it may be in to 70s and sunny; above 8-9000 feet, it may actually snow. But most often, riding is in the 60s with calm weather, but I arrive prepared for anything.