Long run issues

trigirl1203

I need some feedback/advice on my long runs.  FYI- Its been hot here in Chi town

Im having some issues on my long runs.  I begin them with the z1 LRP, just fine.  Do the Z3 intervals, whether 2x12, 3x8, etc. etc., fine (well not fine, its harder than you know what sometimes, but it gets done). Then I hit Z1 LRP for the middle 30-40ish minutes, great.

Now here is where my long runs seem to go to hell-Going from that middle Z1 LRP interval back to a Z2 interval, for 20', 15', whatever it may be.  I'm having such an issue hitting that interval on every long run, it's the part of the run I've come to dread.  Now I get that by this time, I'm tired, it is towards the end of the run, yadda yadda yadda, but for the life of me I can not hit that interval.  My hydration seems to be ok (minus the fact that its nearly impossible to hydrate properly with the humidity these days!) and Im hitting a gel every 30'. 

I have a reoccuring hamstring issue that is something I've just come to accept, but that's another ball of wax--

Any thoughts/feedback on bettering these long runs is much appreciated.  Thanks ya'll

mattsull

If you're not feeling that last interval then just skip it and finish at LRP or however you feel. I've done many a long run without throwing in any of the intervals. Gotta listen to your body. There should be plenty of intensity for you on other days.The primary purpose of the long run is the volume.

Swanie

Matt Samojeden has done some significant study on the effects of heat and humidity when running.

You can find it in the RACE EXECUTION Forum under the heading  "IM TX Temperature Impact on Run Pace"  I tried to provide a direct link but for some reason the link won't work.

I think what you are experiencing is the effect of the heat and humidity of Chicago in the summer.

ghernand

an option in addition to what was suggested for you to consider:

1) adjust your zones to allow for you to do the entire set of intervals over the long run.  if it happens all the time, then vdot could be set too high or in this most recent case, the temp may be too high for the current zones as steve suggests.

i like this recommendation for your particular case because of that injury you mention.  if you are going over what you can do in those first intervals, then you risk injury.  by adjusting as per option 1 above you not only finish the workout and get that satisfaction, but you are helping prevent injury.

for the record:  i am currently doing the "push a little harder until you have to slow approach", but i have no injuries (knock on wood) and i am in the off-off season.

good luck!

gh

 

Joseph Lombardi

Switch your pacing to a standard Fast Finish type long run...start slow z1 and run increasing pace finishing the final third or so in solid Z2 (or even Z3 if you feel it)...it might just be that your not good at changing pace that way..and would be easier to get the quality in this way....As a longtime runner this is the way I do long runs withquality...Just an idea.

Bruce Thompson

Lauren - I run in the same Chicago heat and humidity, so I understand.  Sometimes on the long run i feel the same way you do, but instead of not doing the 2nd interval at all, I do the following.    I break the 2nd interval into more but shorter segments, with a rest interval in between.  For example, if the plan says 2 x 10' @ Z3 with (3'), I may do 4 x 5' @ Z3 with (3') and I may even walk the first 60" of the rest interval.  I still get the prescribed 20 mins at interval pace, but I just add in more rest.  I'm 56 and I've found that some days  I just need to take extra rest so I can do a quality session - the total interval time at the prescribed pace (the work).  I'm not sure what RnP would say about this, but it works for me.  Net, I still get the total time of the long run in, I still get the total time of the intervals in at the plan pace.  I just break up the interval and get less time after the intervals @ Z1.  In runners terminology, I  guess I turn the 2nd interval into a fartlek session. Also, given your hamstring issue, the shorter intervals allow you assess your leg status more frequently after shorter periods of time (am I ok to do the next interval?).   So if you hamsting injury does flare up, you can just cut out the remaining time of the intervals, and hopefully not aggrevate the injury.

Hope this helps.

Bruce

jburbatt

As mentioned above, you can definitely slow down your paces because of the heat. Or sometimes I'll implement the "walking the aid stations" method, where every mile, no matter what interval I'm at, I'll do 30" of walking (put your watch on autolap to make this easy). I find it gives me enough of a break from the heat to hit the intervals, plus you are training to do it in the actual race.

afrost

Lauren, I have the same problem too. First z1 is good, the intervals in z3 suck but they get done, the second z1 is good, but that last z2 part is HARD. I run by HR (don't have a Garmin) so I just try to get my HR up maybe 3 -5 beats per minute for that last section. I know this is not really my z2 - that should be probably more like 5-10 beats per minute higher. But I just try to lift the pace a little bit rather than not at all. The toughness that this exercise brings mentally I think is its biggest benefit quite frankly. By forcing yourself to just lift the pace a bit makes you tougher mentally if not physically. Give it a try tomorrow and see how it goes!

---Ann.

Al Truscott

Lauren, it sounds to me like you are achieving the primary purpose of the long runs - to mimic in less than 2.5 hours what it feels like at the end of an an Ironman marathon.

I'm like Bruce T. - while I can almost always get the initial intervals done as written, I have to break up the ending time @ MP into shorter intervals to get them done. And sometimes, I either don't do all the time @ MP, or do the time, but at a slower pace. In any event, the brain and muscle power required to even make the effort after a hard 2 hours or so is the training factor for me.

As to slowing down in the heat - when it's warmer (around here that means 75-80F, tops), I do my slowing down during the EP or "rest" portion of the long run. I figure I can tolerate the heat for a "shorter" time, like 15 minutes or less. But I will spend more time between intervals and/or run slower during the EP portion when it's "hot".

Paul Hough

Lauren - I struggled for over 4 yrs with a left hamstring problem that seems to have disappeared in only the past 2 months. I keep a tennis ball in my cars and at work...always rolling my leg over it. However, I think what helped me the most was putting an OTC orthotic in my left BIKING shoe. Did that back in April and it started slowly clearing up. I've never had my legs measured, but my left foot is a 1/2 size smaller than the right...thought maybe the left leg might be just a tad shorter, hence a little more strain on the left hammie coming around the crank. I did it merely as an experiment...wish I had tried that 4 years ago! Could be a placebo effect, but I'm not changing it now.

Joe Matchette

@Lauren - You are not alone on hitting the Z2 and Z3 intervals on the Long Run. If you recall my dashboard posts of late, I haven't hit any of them in a *long* time. I was glad to read Matt S's response to this thread. For tomorrow's run I plan to just stay steady for the first part and then see if the Z3 work is even slightly feasible. I will, like is said above, break it up from 2x12 to (at the minimum) 4x6 with no-kidding Rest Intervals between, when I expect to do a lot of walking. One thing I am thinking about incorporating into my Long Runs is hand coolers to help keep my Core Body Temp down. During my HIM at the beginning of June, I carried ice in my hands for as long as it lasted between aid stations and I think it really helped my body deal with the heat.

FWIW - I totally pooched the last 5k run test we had...lots of reasons why. That being said I am still using my VDOT from my last 'good' test. However, the next test in our plan will, come hell or high water, be my VDOT pacing metric for IMLoo. Period. From there, I will adjust per the Running in Heat work that Matt Samojeden has put out there.

Again, you are not alone in feeling the effects of heat and humidity. Hopefully we can all learn how to deal with it effectively and use that knowledge to execute on Race Day.

cgres123

I posted this proplem with the heat also, Coach P said for every 5 degrees over 60 add 3 ". It doesn't sound like much but it works as long as you do it on the front end as well.

The Galloway Method of running suggest 5" for every 5 degrees over 60.

Since I'm between Vdot numbers from my last test I run between the spread with the heat/humidity index added.

So pick a flavor all the above is good stuff .

trigirl1203

Thanks so much everyone for your responses! No long run for me this week, but I'll try everything next week and report back I appreciate all your time!

Scott Alexander

90 degrees was the coolest temp in the last 24hrs here in Dallas. I'm going to move some of my runs back inside! While treadmills aren't the greatest, they enable me to hit my workouts and the goals, plus there's air conditioning and fans!!!

Paul Hough

BLUF - I followed the advice above to get through my long run today. Was pretty happy with the results...i.e., I finished, I did not cramp, and I did run the 2nd hour faster than the first. Slow times, but I put in the work.

Got up early this morning for my 2.5 hour run. The low was 83 and it went up to 86 during the run. I think the adjustment of 3-5 degrees is a first approximation. You have to consider humidity as well. I took it very easy the first hour...started out with a 9:43 mile and slowly picked it up, but not too much. I was dripping at 2 miles and my Newton's squished the rest of the run despite drain holes on the bottom. I was stopping for a drink every 2-2.5 miles. Took 5 S-caps and 2 gels during the run. I worked hard in the 2nd hour to push the pace down and had about 5 miles +/- a few seconds of 8:45...then did a slow jog the last 30 mins. So I made 16.25 miles for an average of 9:14/mi. I don't expect to see these conditions in my next IM and fully expect to run 20-30 secs faster depending on the local temperature.

Coach Patrick

I think until 8 weeks until race day, your goal is to get the "work" done. Once you are within that window, being able to negative split your longer runs and push harder becomes more important.