Coach Rich: Observations on Epic Camp ~2 weeks out?
Rich - can you post a followup to your Epic week? I'd like to bookmark your observations, particularly looking in the rear view mirror after a few weeks in the real world. Particularly interested in
-results / experiences after living-training at altitude
-downstream impact on volume on bike
-downstream impact of volume on run
-any impairment of ability to hit normal intensity of w/os the week after? Two weeks after?
-weight loss? I see you posted in another thread that you're down to about 126lbs.
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Hi Dave,
Good q's!:
The next week (this past week) was back on track. Just finished a week of 2.75hrs cycling, 14.5hrs cycling, 48mi running, 24 total hours. Felt fine at the end of the week, last night:
Observations from the camp, where I'm at now and going forward through the next few weeks:
Thoughts on stuff going forward (this post is getting long
):
Mammoth Camp: scheduled for Aug 12 (driving day + 2hr ride) through Aug 21 (likely long run, or 2hr spin + drive home). I have my final RR scheduled for Friday, August 26. Friday so I can swim 4k before the 112/6 brick. So the camp ends 3wks before race day, 4 days before my final RR. Notes:
In summary, I learned what to do and what not do in a camp like this and will apply those lessons to the Mammoth camp, with the goal of only need 2-3 days of recovery before banging out my final RR and then transitioning to a 2wk taper for IMWI. I've gained the running confidence to roll a MUCH bigger running volume ball down the hill, for a good 5wks, than I ever have for any other IM. My months long experimentation with working on body comp goals within the context of all of this means I know how to do it, usually smartly
. Net is that I'm very confident I can put up quality 25-27hr weeks for the weeks of July 25, Aug 1, 8, and 15, with the priority placed on running volume.
Pete
Thanks, it's helpful to get this out of head an into one place.
As I look at my Mammoth Camp, I'll likely keep the same hours I will have been doing up to that point (~25hrs/wk) but shift the focus to Big Days (~45'/5:30/45'), longer individual runs, and swimming every day.
Seriously, that is awesome. Thanks a lot for the info - this really helps bring together thinking on where and how to situate a few spikes in volume in a higher volume season, and I think this will be a fantastic resource - now that it's in writing - to start to develop the Kona Room, or whatever you guys are planning to call it. There's lots of stuff here that can trickle down from Coach -> Kona aspirants -> FOP -> MOP and so forth.
Also good to continue to situate this stuff as a one-man volume lab - I know crash training is tempting for all of us, but seeing how it fits into a month / training cycles / season / year is very helpful. Recalling that the quest for the pointy end is something that gets measured over a much longer term is helpful to keep in mind for us all.
To a few of the specifics (and no need to reply - I know you have a lot on your plate as you head into the WI camp):
-45-50 miles per week: damn. I'm really going to have to have my sights set on your heels in the late miles of WI!
-two-a-day runs: interesting stuff. Both at MP intensity? is this a time management thing, or jsut pumping up the volume? I've tried this in the past at EP, but never any hotter than that.
-overall sustainability: I'm actually surprised that you're finding these big weeks repeatable to the point that Mammoth is still a viable and attractive training event. Thought you would have scrapped that one. Good on ya.
-Tues (Wed?) bike: Also surprised you're able to knock that one out after the kind of run volume you're clocking. Nice.
-time off after Epic: Was it worth it? I have found that I've needed 3-5 days of good rest, and sometimes at least 2 days off entirely - after such a major training event, and always find myself thinking if, on balance, it would have been better to have kept 2 weeks of consistent "big" versus one "massive" and one "dip." I hear you on the confidence building, though.
-Dunno why you'll bother with a run test - I honestly think you would be better served by a 45 minute nap. Not that the number won't be nice to have ... it's just that you'll have a ton of miles that you're building in race-specific situations, pace, execution, and so forth, that the test will just be extra noise. IOW, I think after 10 weeks x 40-50 miles per week, you know your paces by RPE better than anything else.
-Does the WI bike course give enough opportunities for sitting in the aerobars to justify removing the spacer and spending all that time in the aero extensions? I've never been, and never ridden it, but thought it looked hilly enough to keep someone on the bullhorns a lot.
Rich:
in regards to your comment on doing a 5km vdot test to get data for the team:
i was thinking that the result would be beneficial for the "EN want to qualify for Kona group" more so than for the rest of EN. you have been training more than the standard ENers and your ability to 'push yourself' is more of the Kona qualifying variety. therefore, your 5km vdot score will be influenced by those factors and so better suited for the 'advanced' group.
if the above is true, then perhaps a 13.1 vdot test would be more accurate to determine your pacing for IMWI and for data for the Kona group. i don't think you'll find any objections from those in the kona group about having to do a 13.1 test 2-3weeks out from a race.
i realize a 13.1 test might be hard to work into your schedule, but just throwing it out there for you to consider. i can pace you through it if needed.
G
Others may have a different opinion.
G as a counterpoint...I'm not a fast runner. My goal is a 19:45-20:00 final 5k test, rather pedestrian by Kona standards, I think. But I'm pretty sure that the run volume I'll bank between now and the end of August would give me a higher VDot score than a 5k test would, giving me faster race day paces. So, using that logic, you could say that a 5k test for me underperforms my VDot = slows me down on race day relative to my ability and I can fix that mistake, so to speak, in the last 10 miles of the run. I feel this is a good strategy for me because my best IM run was in '02 as a 3:45.
Also:
-Probably right about fitting a half into a string of 25+ hour weeks, but I wouldn't discount the idea entirely based on proximity from the race, and I think with the run training stress you're accumulating, it would probably get absorbed pretty easily. Although something would have to give somewhere else.
I had been toying with using two weeks (so, I guess weeks 6-7 of a 10-week cycle) to drop the weekend bike volume to 3.5h and 2.5h ABP rides in order to get 2 weekly "mostly HMP" 90 minute runs in. However, this is where it gets individual, and I'm trying to do this based on my personal goal of running to full potential in an IM run at a pace that's in the average or slightly faster than others in my AG aiming for a KQ.
-I get it: the 5k is part of the "R and P as lab rats" scene. My early guess here: the conclusion you'll pen from this will be "running a 5k test in a season of high workload gives a number that has a resemblance to race performance, but as the volume goes up, so do other factors that are ghosts of the type of training you've been doing ... like efficiency, durability, nutrition smarts, tolerance to the last-10-mile-hurt, and so forth." Not to be all mystical about it, but the realm that you and P have been in recently isn't quite as clean as the normal data set.
@Matt: yes, that makes complete sense to test 8-12weeks out and train with that INFO, then fine tuning Vdot based on performances in that window before race day.
@Dave: i am doing the same as you currently, with running at HMP over longer runs. i want my 13.1Vdot to match my 5km Vdot. i also absorb 'long' runs easily, but i have only tried going faster than usual over longer distances in these past two weeks. so far so good, although i was really sore the first week!!!
@Rich: i understand your strategy. i too think your true vdot will be different than the 5km vdot, only i would have guessed your 5km vdot would be higher, which is why i suggested the 13.1. However, sounds like you will be doing your own assessment regarding pacing anyway and that's all that counts. Nonetheless, as Dave suggests, consider the longer fast runs next season!
easier said than done, i know, since i almost always run vs. bike when given the choice, although once actually on the bike and training i am happy.
g
Yeah, I get the ghost stuff, good point.
I'm running more flat runs so I can dial in RPE against a true pace. For a long time all of my runs have either been killing myself for a 9:30 pace up a steep ass hill, or bombing down at 6:45 pace, or T-pace repeats on a bit of a funky grade. Hard to wrap your head around that stuff. From these flat runs I'm beginning to narrow down a flat-ground IM run (post mile 6) RPE and corresponding pace. My run on the IMWi course this weekend will help me gather more data, as will a 5k test at the end of the month. So, in early September, I'll have something like this:
Looking back at my last IM, IMCDA'08, I buggered my race in the first 5 miles when I ran about 8:20's with Todd Melinger before dropping into a more comfortable ~8:45. I paid for that by slowing to 9:30-45 for the last 8 miles. If I had run 9-9:10's for the first 6 miles, I probably would have then dropped into 8:30-40's and stayed there.
So using that 8:15-25 above, adding :30 to it and running 6 miles at ~9:00 pace ~7-8lb lighter than CDA'08, with ~5 consecutive weeks of 45-50mpw running and ZERO pain in my feet, ankles and hips (I was hurtin' at CDA and back was killing me from shitty swim fitness + zero spacers on the P3)...that's money right thar.
As far as KQ goes...while 40-44AG has gotten much faster, they don't seem to swimming much faster
. I'm tracking toward a 52:30-53:30 swim. Last year at IMWI there were 3 guys in the top ten who all swam 54:2x...seriously, they all came out of the water at the same time. Another guy 59:xx and the rest up to 1:10. Short story is my swim still buys me time on the run and, unlike in years past, I'm actually gonna, you know, swim some actual heavy yardage before the race 
.
I personally set up my plan so that I had two big volume weeks prior to my three week taper. By volume I mean 350 on the bike, 40-ish on the run, and swimming open water 5x a week (about a mile a day average). Total time was about 25 hours for each of those weeks, then it was time to drop back, do a Race Sim, and then keep going. My point here is that Kona Peeps train all year for these two weeks...gotta nail them then get back to our reasonable schedule to consolidate your fitness with enough time to bounce back for the race. I personally was fine on my other workouts, but didn't feel good on race week until Friday.
The other edits I made to my plan earlier in the year:
* no long run over 1:45 save for one effort (due to earlier boston).
* dropped interval run for a 45' treadmill run at MP at 3% grade.
* two treadmill runs a week.
* big bike week in California in May.
* no tri bike until 8 weeks to go.
Will think on others. I guess my point here is that you don't have to go to mammoth and live at altitude and put up a 35+ hour week to get a volume benefit to your regular EN schedule...
Yep...the big caveat to all of this is that, as Patrick said, I'm the Bubble Boy, with no responsibilities other then train, eat, sleep, recover, do the EN coaching thing...and that's about it. For example, on Saturday I ran 4 miles, rode 5.5hrs, ate my body weight in chicken, rice, corn and beans, drank about 48oz of water, laid down for a couple hours, had dinner with Joanne, watched the tour, went to bed at 9p and got 9hrs sleep. Woke up Sunday, ran 6, rode 3.5hrs, ate, laid down...then sat through 3hrs of Les Miserables...DYING to go to sleep
.
Thanks for the continued chatter on this topic. As you can probably tell, I'm nudging this thread with the occasional question to try to extract more from the goodness in the "why are the Coaches doing 30 hours a week" thread, the results you're now seeing, and my personal thinking on what should be done to move from outer bubble to KQ. In other words, as a self-coached athlete, trying to tease out the rational connections between the individualized tweaks you guys are making, the outcomes you've experienced, what can is generalizable (and what isn't), and what individual stuff might also apply to my case.
For example, I will not swim 1:15s for the first few hundreds at WI with Rich because I'll be anaerobic and drown. But I might start subbing 3% treadmill runs for intervals a la Patrick, because I think this will speak to "running an IM marathon to my potential." And so forth.
All of this recognizing that when you guys get to the pointier end of the game:
-one size does not always fit all
-sometimes, as coaches, it's better to save us from ourselves
So, I can respect that you may want to keep this as black box kinda stuff for the time being, or until you can adequately dress it up with the approriate cautions that it isn't for everyone and comes with a long list of caveats, disclaimers and conditions. But if you're good with keeping it out in the general forums, please keep it rollin'!
Dave, yep, we get it, sounds good. However, from experience, we know that if we make the Bad Ass Training Plan/Program, many people will want to do it who have no business (yet) doing it. So, at the end of the day (and the season!!) when PnI have some bandwidth to hash out what/if this would look like, access to _that_ will be on an application, special invitation only basis.
For now, I continue to see big gains in my bike endurance and FTP-type fitness, I feel like I've found another gear on the run and in the pool, but I'm also a bit shelled right now and still have a 4 mile run this evening, on track for a 50 mile run week, to include 2 x 112/6 RR's in Madison. But I want to make it very, very clear that all of that is enabled by my long history of endurance training, my unique recovery resources, and a very, very good knowledge of what I need to do/not do and when.
I'm bumping this thread, in an effort to get some info if possbile from those who put in some Big Weeks in their IM build, now that they've had a chance to see the results.
While I've done a lot of these weeks myself, now I've got 8 EN campers coming to join me Sept 29-Oct 5th, and I'd like some help as I guide them through this week which will be coming about 7 weeks before IM AZ..
Thanks in advance.
(Thought for the day: "It's never easy, but it can be easier." I'm going to attribute that to Yogi Berra, cause it sounds like him.)
Al,
Happy to help. Any specific questions?
The 8 campers will be in weeks 13/14 of a 20 week plan for IM Arizona. They seem to want to get a bump in bike fitness, wanting to make this an extra-long Big Bike Weekend. The agenda I devised based on that is below.
I have two questions: (1) Does this workload and intensity seem reasonable (remember, we're living at 8400' and riding between 6-10,000) and (2) Should I worry about group dynamics leading to some folks pushing too hard trying to be KOM?
• Thursday, I suggest a swim, followed by a 30-40 minute run. [people arriving throughout the day, jumping to altitude, needing to put bikes together, etc]
• Friday: Snowmass and Capitol Creek Roads, about 52 miles, 3 hrs, 15 minutes [my usual time], elevation varies between 8300 (my house) and 6900 feet, with two climbs of 5-7 miles @ 3-6% to 8000', another climb from 6900-8300 at the end, mostly 1-2%, but shorter, steeper segments thrown in, work intervals (WI) @ IF of 0.75 of sea level FTP.
• Saturday: Fryingpan Road, 66 miles, 4:10, two climbs, one from 6700-7700' @ 2% gradient, then the same climb as the day before back home, WI @ IF of 0.7 - 0.72.
• Sunday: I offer an uphill time trial to Maroon Bells, 7.65 miles @ 5-7% grade, 7800'=9600', 45 minutes (or so). Total ride is 34 miles, 2:52. Followed by a 30 minute brick.
• Monday, there seems to be big sentiment to go up Independence Pass, 20 mile climb @ 5-7%, 7900-12,100' Plus another 20 miles to and from my house, with additional climbing. [This one worries me, as it is really too high to get any real training value for the race, and it's easy to: (a) burn ot on the way up, (b) get discouraged by the altitude effect on power and speed, and (c) risks of going downhill 20 miles on a narrow road on a TT bike] An alternate ride that day for those not so crazed would be an 80 mile trip downvalley and back to Glenwood Springs to the Colorado River and the Hot Springs pool. This is on a paved rail trail, 1-2% grade the whole way. Both these rides usually take me 4:30-5:00 to do.
• Tuesday, I think really should be a swim/run day, maybe trying some hill repeats downvalley at lower elevation.
• Anyone still standing on Wednesday can consider Castle Creek Rd (Ashcroft), main climb is 7600'-9800', 46 miles @ 3:10, WI @ IF 0.70.If the IF's seem low, remember the ~ 10% reduction of FTP from sea level to 7-8000'.That should tire us out, but not kill us, I think.
These are all out and back rides, so "slower" riders can turn around earlier, keeping the ride times constant among us.