Hills - I suck at them - How to get better?
I know i am not a great climber, i know in recent weeks having found some bigger than average hills on some routes, i am getting better. I know the answer from RnP will be ride hills lots, ride hills hard, ride hills often.
how do i know i am weak on hills? i dont often get passed by random cyclists on the flats, but i do on the hills. Then without trying, i find myself catching and or passing them back on the downhill & flats. No, i am not backing off on the hills racing the "EN" way as i beleive in attacking the hills in training for conditioning purposes.
Any specific advice on "how" to train on hills would be appreciated:
- how to do proper hill repeats?
- should one be in or out of the saddle? or both?
- other thoughts/suggestions?
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Also I am not anywhere near and expert, but here are some of my personal observations. On the weekends I ride with tri guys, but during the week it is usually roadies on a hillier course. They all want to be Lance and attack every hill like they are going for the stage win. I will use the hill as one of my intervals for the day and ride HARD, so at least Z4 or over. however I try not to hammer the initial and die a 1/4 to 1/2 way up, still focus on watts that allow me to climb consistently.
In the saddle vs out of the saddle - any time I start going slower than 16mpg I come out of the aero, sit up, and hit the watts. On the steeper/longer hills, I will find it hard to keep the watts at goal (going way over upper limits) and my RPM fall off. This is when I come out of the saddle. But I do it like the training plan prescribes. Standup but don't spike the watts. hit your goal watts standing. it is a little tricky at first, but then becomes easier. it gives you a good stretch, position change, and a slight recovery. as I start to reach the crest, sit down and kick up the RPMs. At the top of the crest back in the aero getting ready to add gears. by the first 1/4 of the down hill, I am full aero, relaxed, RPMs back up, hitting the watts, and usually flying past the guys that just passed me on the hills. One more thing on standing. the first couple times you may find it is too easy to pedal and you are 'spinning out'. if this happens, add a gear or two right before you plan on standing. it will equal the effort out for you and smooth the cadence.
I don't have much for you on hill repeats. If I want to get some practice in on the hills I will go find one or two on my route and then adjust my interval training that day. So if the plan calls for 3 x 12' Z4, and I know it takes me 4 minutes to climb the hill. I will do 8-9 hill repeats shooting for 510% over Z4 watts on the hill. at first only rest while turning around and coasting down. Usually as I get deeper in the set, the rest will increase to what is need to recover and complete the set. Then I finish the plan as prescribed.
If this is info you already know, thanks for quietly reading. Otherwise I hope some of this helps and maybe others will tell us both how to improve.
shawn
www.loseit.com
I dare you to use this tool, correctly, and not get leaner.
Read this, A Practical Strategy for Improving Body Composition
And if I see one more big guy, former big guy, big guy working hard to not be so big anymore guy bitching about not being able to ride hills, I'm on a plane to show up at your door and punch you in the nuts. My wife is a flight attendant and I can be anywhere in the world in 24hrs, like the Jason Friggin' Bourne of EN...
Climbing is about power to weight...period. Work on both sides of the equation, get as good at climb as your body type will let you, and quit bitching about it in the meantime.
We have a local, "Belgian Ben," who is also an EN training plan athlete. He's a former Junior Something cyclist in Belgium and his cousin rides for one of the pro teams so, yeah, he's got some genes in his corner. But when he showed up on the scene about 3yrs ago he was very, very out of shape and fat. He's probably about 6'2" and was about...260lb. Very soft 260lb. He's racing Vineman Full this weekend and I'd say he's about 195lb right now. The thing is, because he was pushing around 260, then 250, then 240lb for a while and working very, very, very hard, he has a ludicrous high FTP that he's hung on to as he lost the weight. I think his FTP is about 340-350w, up from maybe 300w, which isn't super great on any hill when you're 260lb. But now that he's followed a process to get leaner and weighs sub 200lb, he won a recent tri club climbing TT -- 8.7 miles at 6%. He crushed everyone else and was within about a minute of my season best time. Why? Because he's inserted himself into an EN training plan, worked his ass off, and follows a process to get leaner. I should add that he very recently had a kid and commutes 30' each way to work every day so he's also very time crunched.
But put the doode on flat ground on his tri bike and he's friggin' scary. I've asked him to pace/race me on my final FTP test in late August, 20' flat TT. My goal is 325w and my instructions to him will be to either drag race me fair and square, or half wheel me vs smokin' my ass.
You gotta love how Rich tells it like it is...
As far as getting better at hills, "ride more hills". I am 6' and 190'ish, so a bigger guy (down from 240#), I dreaded hills and where I live in Washington you cant leave my neighborhood without climbing hills, long steep hills. I convinced myself that I was going to get better on hills, so i started included more and more hills on every ride. Now once a week I go on a "hills" ride that includes 7+ 10-18% hills that I can crush. IOW find hills and learn to love them.
this is exactly what i was thinking. i have a few very steep longish hills within an hour drive of me. Wondering where in the weekly workout to insert these? perhaps instead of the interval day?
my plan this OS is that as long as there is no snow on the ground, i am going to go do these almost weekly. i figure between weight loss and hill work, i should get there...
any comments on in the saddle, out of the saddle, etc for TRAINING purposes?
Scott, to your Q about seated/standing, I don't personally think it really matters ... but what I will say is that most people will either be rythym (sp) climbers, who tend to stay seated, ride a slightly lower cadence and prefer steady pace (think, diesel engine) or more punchy climbers who tend to frequently stand, like pace changes and are ofter a higher cadence. FWIW, my experience is the latter are the more pure climbers and tend to be smaller/lighter people, regardless of gender. I am sure there are a lot of physiological reasons for this (ie if you are working really hard, standing and spiking your watts will wipe you out), among other things. Suggest you experiment on your training rides and see where you are most comfortable -- recognizing that on race day, you ought to ride EN style, with a bias toward seated, higher cadence going uphill to even out your power distrribution.
@Scott:
+1 on what Rich says. I raced IMLP last year at 190 lbs (6'4"). FYI, 190 lbs on me still looks pretty lean. I started using LoseIt! in November, and currently weigh 168 lbs. I climb MUCH MUCH faster and easier now than I did a year ago. I also look a LOT skinnier. My wife says I'm too skinny, and she's probably right, but I'm racing much faster and easier than I was.
Long story short, if you want to climb faster, there are 2 things to do. 1. climb more often and 2. lose excess weight. There's no other way around it.
Bigger, more powerful guys (ie, guys who go up a hill fast because they use the watts side of the equation more than the kg side) tend to be rythm, tempo, Jan Ulrich type climbers. This is how I am. I settle into a rythm, pace, watts, I know I can ride and do my thing. You're either there with me at the end or not, but if we are racing I need to start the surges, any attacks, forcing you to respond to me. I don't do so well when I have to respond to your climbing rythm, unless I know that in the end you and I are very close, in which case I'll let you do your thing and hold a bit back so I have enough to put on a big surge in the last minute or so.
As I've gotten lighter, ridden with lighter guys, and generally played on punchy stuff for the last 2-3yrs, I've gotten much, much better at standing to toss out an additional 80-100w for several seconds, sit back down at my tempo effort for a minute or two, stand again, etc. But this up down stuff has to be on my schedule, my rythm, not yours.
Contrast my style to Sawiris, who is about 132-34lb. He's a standing fool, that's how he makes his power.
Basically, unless you're a roadie and have been doing this for years, if you're over about 180lb I recommend you sit your ass down and climb tempo, at your steady effort.
So my highly technical advice is...attack.
While you might not be able to find hills to attack on a weekly basis, think about finding some kind of destination where you can do a big bike weekend, or something similar in a hilly area. Or maybe there are hills within a few hours that you could hit on a monthly basis. While it's not ideal, those opportunities are going to improve your ability and understanding of riding hills. My .02
I do think that hill climbing is different than rolling speed on the flats. R&P have long held that FTP is FTP, no matter what the terrain; but I find the different position and lower cadence to be meaningful; specificity counts.
It was 45 miles into a 80 mile ride, did my intervals in the beginning rode some other hills along the way, nothing major.
the hill is about 1.4 miles long average gradient is about 10-12% there is a 6% section about a third of the way up. the top 1/3 mile is 12%. half way up there are some people sitting in their driveway drinking iced tea or whatever and the woman says "you have to be kidding" I guess they dont see too many bikers on their hill.
worked it nice and steady, much of the time had to be out of the saddle as i am still running my smaller cog in the rear. Conquered the hill!
No hills? Try this: find a good stretch of open (unprotected) road exposed to wind; ride into the wind sitting up with a very high gear/low cadence.
For flatlanders who want to simulate hills...I know it's a dirty word...but the proper trainer can do it. High resistance, hard intervals. For extra motivation, the Sufferfest videos are really very good. Also, for those who have one, a Computrainer is exceptional for hill-work, as well as actual course simulation.