2011 IRONMAN & HALF IRON Training Plan Feedback Thread (closes 8/5!)

Coach Patrick

 Folks -

It's that time of year again when Rich and Patrick stop producing and start listening. Really hard.



This is your chance to tell us all about the IRONMAN & HALF IRON Training Plans...specifically:

• what you liked/didn't like
• what you think should change and why
• any thing else you can think of.

Example of Good Feedback:  "Ironman -- I have enjoyed the change to a three week taper in the 2011 plans. I think we could use more individual volume session in the final weeks because X, Y, and Z." OR  “OutSeason -- I think the move to consolidating the 30/30s as 2.5 minutes was too much for me, because X, Y, or Z.”



Example of Not-So-Good Feedback: "More hard stuff please!" OR "I am a nocturnal bipolar vegan with agoraphobia, I need special workouts for me."



While we can't answer every request, this annual exercise has repeatedly turned up really solid great advice for the Team. Sometimes our edits end up in the plans themselves, other times they grow into hacks for the wiki and much more.



Thanks in advance for your time. Please be sure to read through this thread as you reply so we can cut down on repetition...and the deadline for info for us is Friday 8/5!!



~ RnP

Keith Wick

Having done the IM plan this year and previously nothing but the HIM plan, I found the 3 hour ABP ride of the IM plan to be very helpful on Sunday as far as increasing my tolerance for the 80-85% rides. I'm looking forward to doing a few weeks of the HIM plan, but I'm going to keep the Sunday at 3 hrs. I'm wondering if lengthening it to 2.5-3 hrs would be helpful to the people who will be on the bike closer to the 3+ hr mark?

Jennifer Eckert

Having just completed the HIM plan (2 1/2 months, late comer), I found that having a specific workout (ie: 15' w/u, 3 x 3 mile at Z-2/3; w/d 5') for every run workout a bit daunting. Sometimes it would be nice to go out and just "run" at say MP or Half MP for a specific amount of time. I understand the necessity and importance of intervals, and I enjoy them, but it seemed like it was very specific every time I was going out for a run.

delesh

I noticed that there were a few workouts that were incorrectly written throughout the intermediate HIM and OS plans. It was never a show stopper because we could get clarification from the forums but it might be good to have a second set of eyes go over the plans to make sure they are all correct.

tim cronk

LOL I'll let you know after IMKY. So no comments on the plans yet, just the program or format. I would like to be able to pull up the full plan view and then be able to drag and drop the workouts to other days to fit my schedule. Would be nice if you could even split a day that had two workouts in it and drag and drop each one to separate days and delete certain workouts completely. I'm not sure how feasible something like this is (imagine its possible for a computer geek) but currently I am accomplishing almost all the workouts but almost none of them are on the same day or week for that matter and its time consuming and somewhat confusing to constantly be rebuilding each week.

talltim

Int HIM Plan
Adv SC Plan

Will confine my comments to the HIM Plan, per Coach P's post. My OS Comments are in the OS thread.

For HIM plan, I thought the overall plan was quite good, esp the bike protocol. I had a few issues scheduling so many days w/ 2x workouts, as its hard for me (and I'd bet many others here) to go > 90 min training on a weekday on a regular basis. The Int Plan would have us doing that at least 2 days out of 5 during the week, IIRC. Not sure if there is a work-around for that, but in terms of feeback, there it is.

Outside of that one item, I would change very little. I thought the swim workouts were fine (from a swimming background here), if anything, a little light on total volume. Run plan was fine, but probably geared closer to 1:45 runners vs 2+ hr people off the bike.

Carrie Chavez

I followed the HIM plan this year and the IM plans last few years. I personnally will be adding in wetsuit swims followed by bike rides in the aero position. I had back pain in my HIM and I attribute this to that lack of practice. As I look bacl to years past I had done those types of workouts and it helped me for the race. Not sure why I did not do it this year. My regret now. I only write this in now because in reading many recent race reports I see a trend of back pain complaints. Might be something to consider adding?

[Deleted User]

Intermediate IM plan - just did Lake Placid

I thought the plan was great and credit it with a very satisfying IMLP.

My only (minor) issue was trying to follow the intricate interval sets on long Saturday outdoor rides. Would it be as effective to just give general guidance - such as "accumulate xx mins of riding @ 95 - 100% FTP, as terrain dictates", since based on forum posts that is what most people do anyway?

Also, and this goes for all the plans I suppose, a little rationale behind the workouts would be interesting and useful. To understand WHY the workouts are written the way they are - the theory behind them - would help us to train with more purpose and to be able to intelligently adjust on the fly without bogging down the micro/macro threads. For example, why during the taper does the intensity of the brick runs suddenly change in an unexpected way? Why does the run frequency pick up? Why is adding strides near the end of the program important? Perhaps a short paragraph before each week that explains the purpose and desired training effect of these workouts would be useful. I think there are a lot of scientific types here, and just doing things because it says, rather than understanding the why behind it, is difficult for us!

Great job RnP!

Dave Campbell

This year I did the 1/2 Advanced and IM Intermediate plans. I thought both had me well prepared for my races. I got a hamstring injury at the end of the OS and that hampered my run prep. I struggled late in the run at LP and that happened about the distance of my longest runs. My long runs, 2.5 hours were in the 14-15mile range. Going forward I'd do a couple of 20 milers. At my pace, I don't get that far in 2.5 hours. Also, I would add in some time for core/stretching/maintenance. Maybe its just me but as I'm getting older, I feel the need for more maintenance

Al Truscott

Not precisely on topic, but closely related: The Long Course Training Manual dates from 2008; maybe it's time for a new edition, or at least a careful re-read by the coaches to make sure it's still what you want to preach. And then, in addition to all those podcasts you crank out for 12-20 weeks, maybe you could assign reading from the LC training manual each week to make sure we get exposure to the background of why we're doing what we're doing and what you''re philosophy is?

More generally, look at the stuff in the wiki about things like Big Days and RR's to make sure it is as clear as to your intent as possible, and include a link to that wiki post in the training plan on that day.

I endorse the idea above of explicitly stating for the Saturday ride: get in a total of 40 (or XX) minutes at FTP in intervals as dictated by your terrain that day, minimum x (eg, 10) and max XX minutes (eg, 20) with no more than x (eg 5) recovery between intervals. So that newbies and OCDs know its OK and EXPECTED that when doing these outside at the start of a long ride, some leeway is expected, and its OK to be creative and/or accomadating to the circumstances of the ride.

Two week taper - good. Ten days - better. Three weeks - too much. But tapers are tricky and personal, I've found, so good luck there.

Beth_S

Half Ironman - I'm really enjoying the structure of the run plan -- especially the long run with the big MP and HMP sections and the five day/week running frequency.

I am wondering if the first HIM race rehearsal could be marked as optional -- especially for those who think their nutrition is fairly dialed in? With a three-hour ride, almost every Saturday is an almost race-rehearsal.

I like Carrie's comment about more biking in aero and emphasizing open water swims. I liked the old "locked in aero" OS workouts. Rephrase that: The old "locked in aero" workouts were good for me.

And, yes, the INT HIM plan is plagued with typos.

It would be really helpful to have downloadable WKO/Raceday files for workouts, too.

And, as long as we are in the wish list -- I think specifying strength work and stretching would take the plans to the next level.

Michele Cellai

12 week INT HIM plan this year- I've gone through it about twice (2 races)

On bike test day, make it clear that it is "TEST or 75' workout" NOT BOTH!

I had lengthy back and forth discussion on FB with newbie (lots of BUT...! BUT..!)  and finally ended up daring them to try to test and then do 75' workout after and let me know how it went.

I love to swim, but I don't think that swimming >2000 yards 3x/week is necessary. I cut out volume on swim days that also had a run.

Agree with above posts about 2 workouts/day. 2 hours was a bit much for so many days each week. See above where I cut swim. 

Long run: this was a real bone of contention for me. Having done INT IM last year- I saw no point in my HIM long run being 2:15, when IM is 2:30. I did not go over 1:45. I am slow and this put me at 11 miles on the day- Good enough. Another 30 minutes and I'd be over the course distance.

Agree with Saturday bike suggestions above.

kurshing

I enjoy the ABP ride in these formats because it is the one workout that is more of a "do what you can, just keep moving". Someone else said it, but, I agree that adding a run like that, maybe each week or even every other week that was a little more of a "get out and enjoy being outside" type of thing would be refreshing...like 15" z1 warm-up, then z2 the rest of the way and try to negative split. Just something simple and a little more free to change it up here and there.

Also, Al made a great suggestion...links directly to Wiki now that we have that resource getting jam-packed with content...directly from the training plans - that would be great!

Jenn Edwards

Hi!

First year with the IM plan and results are still pending!   So far, so good! I like the Thursday long run.  The double bike weekends are tough but I think they will pay off!

 

Two primary suggestions:

 

1: x 100 to others’ comments: I would recommend investing in a copy editor to clean up the plans if only to present a more professional product. There were times it was clear the plan had been simply modified from previous years and it didn’t flow well. Also, ditto some other comments on getting the length of workouts correct. Seems  you could simply pay someone $10 an hour to go through these carefully and solve this point of frustration with about $100.

 

2: Same comment I placed in the OS - I would welcome more color around just HOW to get to the pointy end of the pack and am looking forward to seeing what comes out of that conversation. It seems to me that dialogue has been reserved for those the coaches feel have “earned” it. Unfortunately it’s hard for two coaches to know hundreds of us well enough to make that determination and I personally would welcome the choice to make the decision on my own. I’m not concerned with breaks, rest, less, variety, etc. but on the contrary am willing to put in as much work as necessary to get to where I want to go.  I am able to keep myself focused and motivated year after year. What de-motivates me is feeling like there is information out there on HOW to get there and that I have to lobby to receive it.  I recognize it is difficult to write one plan for a wide range of ambitions so perhaps more direction on how to push and where for those so inclined would help keep us all engaged.

 

X2 to Dave’s comments on run volume. I played the 2.5 hour game last year and it.did.not.work. I’ve modified my approach this year so I’m not in the same boat.

 

X2 to Jim’s comments on rational. It’s my understanding that ultimately the purpose of the team is to teach us to coach ourselves so the background of why we are doing workouts a certain way would be very helpful so ultimately we all end up as WSMs! 

 

X2 to Al’s comments about content. This aligns somewhat with my first suggestion. There is a lot of information out there that conflicts. Sometimes I asked a question (two week taper as referenced in a recently updated WIKI article or three as referenced in the plan) and kind of got the “go with the plan you idiot” response. Those of us who haven’t evolved with the team don’t know what’s new and what’s old…

 

Good luck making heads or tails of all this and thanks for asking!  

MattAaronson

I went from the OS straight into week 6 of HIM ADV. It wourked out really well and I exceeded all my goals for my first half-ironman. In this respect I can't say the pan didn't work as written (and I followed it quite closely with only minor modifications for missed workouts and business travel). The only things I changed materially were:
- the taper, but like Al said, that is a personal thing that you can't impose on folks
- I only did one 120 minute run. I am a decent runner but not too durable. Over 40 miles/wk and I get injuries out of the blue. The 120 min run is ~17 miles so it is a lot of risk. Perhaps I'm just paranoid, but I pulled all but one of the 120 minute runs back to 90 minutes, but kept in all of the HMP intervals and actually dialed up the intensity a bit on those runs (shorter warmup, added additional intervals, never did any z1, etc). I did not underperform my HIM run -- I ran 1:38:38 (in 94 degree heat with 106 heat index) and according to EN execution guidance should have run 1:39:28. So overall I don't think that skipping the 120 min runs hurt me much, and in fact may have saved me from injury.

Nemo Brauch

HIM Beg Plan here, and I'd say Michele nailed all my thoughts as well. Interesting to see that Tim (former swim background dude) felt the swim workouts were light on volume. My thoughts were more like 3600 meters in one workout fir a half- are you on crack? But I modified the swim per Rich's instructions and basically cut the workouts down so that I could fit it into an hour- that worked out fine. Having said that- I really liked the format of the new swim workouts this year. There was a lot more variety and good balance between speed and endurance stuff.

jhpiii

 Int HIM Plan

The first Race Rehearsal is at the end of Week 14, which is a brutal 2 weeks including a 2:15 run on the Thursday that week. So you come into your first Race Rehearsal with really tired legs and try to hold your paces. You are likely to fail if you have been doing all the workouts leading up to it, and that kind of mental letdown is tough with 6 weeks to go. I would suggest a lighter week leading up to Race Rehearsal.  

Coach Patrick

CAN YOU FEEL THESE PLANS GETTING BETTER ALREADY???? I CAN!!!

Thanks so much to all of you...RnI have our homework cut out for us, so stay tuned for updates coming in October 2011!!!

~ P