Home Racing Forum 🏎

Louisville RR#2 - why do I always fall apart after hour 4?

Had a much better RR this weekend.  Two goals:  increase my cadence and hold a .68 IF for hours 2-6.  I succeeded in both...sort of. 

BIKE

Weather was great; and had no nutrition issues. Breaking down the 6 hours looked like this:

HOUR     V.I.        CAD         IF

1              1.05      89       .64  (easy warm up; hills affected VI)

2              1.03      92       .68  (flat and steady)

3              1.02      93       .68  (flat and steady; starting to get tired)

4              1.02      86       .67  (legs becoming fatigued; losing cadence and IF)

5              1.04      75       .63  (legs worn out from spinning; stopped watching watts and went by RPE)

6              1.06      77       .60  (RPE only; just wanted to get it over with!)

All was good the first 3 hours (first and last hours had hills which messed up my VI a bit).  Hour four, I couldn't hang onto my cadence or IF.  Eventually in hour 5 I was so far removed from my Wattage Gear 2 that I mostly stopped watching the Joule since I was well below the goal watts.

I rode the first hour well below my goal IF of .68 so I don't think I rode too hard.  My guess is that I've only had a couple of training rides over the 4 hour mark.  Perhaps it's lack of endurance on the bike?  Nothing I can do for this race, but should I consider adding long rides (4+ hours) during the OS?

 

RUN

Relatively easy, considering how tired my legs were after the 6-hr ride.  Accidentally ran an hour, instead of stopping at 6 miles. Felt so good, I decided to test miles 4-6 at my race pace and it felt fine.

 

Comments

  • Posted By Mac Caudill on 07 Aug 2011 09:06 PM

    ...Relatively easy, considering how tired my legs were after the 6-hr ride.  Accidentally ran an hour, instead of stopping at 6 miles. Felt so good, I decided to test miles 4-6 at my race pace and it felt fine.

     

    Sounds to me like your legs weren't cooked, your brain was. If this were a nutrition or hydration thing, you wouldn't have felt so good on the run. My suggestion: you have to believe your legs are stronger than you think on the bike. Hopefully, in the race, you can use the folks in front of you in the last two hours of the bike as rabbits, to pull you forward when you're feeling "tired". While a few 5-6 hour rides may have helped, the WAY they would help, IMO, is to get your brain and focus used to how much "harder" it gets to maintain watts in the last third of the bike, and teach you that you CAN keep the watts up without harming yourself or your run. The RPE, on each of the three separate legs of a triathlon, should get progressively harder through the entire course of the leg, even while holding watts or speed (pace) the same. Your body is capable, your mind has to be convinced it's possible.

  • I admit I don't feel daunted by the distance and I know I can make it (depending on what the heat does to me).  In fact it's terribly difficult to ride so slow in the first hour. Even race pace (gear #2) feels ridiculously easy....but that same EXACT power/cadence just wipes me out after 4 hours.  I'll literally feel like I'm doing a z4 interval and look down at the Joule and I'm shocked to see double-digit watts.  It's not a pain/soreness/tightness thing, more like my legs feel drained/weak after about 70-80 miles.  My brain still feels like it's in the game, I just can't get my legs to move.  That is....until I get off the bike and start running!

  • Mac, 2X on Al’s comments. 3 questions - you said you were trying to ride at a higher cadence this time, what has been your normal cadence prior to this ride? Also did your HR change significantly for the last 2 hrs? You said nutrition was on , how was your hydration levels?
  • Hmmmmm, my first thought was "how sure are you of that FTP?", but as I read more about the run coming off that ride, I'd agree with Al & Matt- sounds a bit more like mental stuff. Would like to know the answer to Matt's questions. Also- what was the route like?

    FWIW- several of us have found it hard to keep the head in the game for all 112 miles and thus take some form of caffiene around the mile 80ish mark. Not so much for the boost in energy- but more for the mental focus.
  • Consider too that you go into these RR's not tapered or rested. You will feel different physically and mentally on race day. Learn all you can from these, but don't let them get you worried. This protocol works. I also suspect some hydration/nutrition issues yet to be perfected.
  • Hey all, to answer the questions:

    Cadence has always been on the low side. Typical cadence average is usually low 80's so I knew it was something I needed to work on. Some team members critiqued my bike fit video and felt my seat was too high/back, so I made the adjustment for this RR and spinning certainly felt easier.

    My nutrition / hydration was a 6-hr supply of Infinit, with an aerobottle of water which I re-filled twice.  I was constantly drinking, but ran out of pure water in the last hour.  Due to Louisville humidity, I plan on drinking 20-30 oz of water per hour during the race.

    Route was out and back with about 10 miles of hills at the beginning/end and the rest pancake-flat.

    I've heard about using a caffeine source during the bike...espresso brownie? 2x caffeine gel? (recommendations?).  Hopefully it won't have some weird effect on race day. Maybe I'll test it out on this weekend's final long ride.  I hope it's a mental block and not lack of fitness.  I'll definitely be more adrenalized on race day so that should help.

    Thanks for the suggestions!

  • Mac - two comments

    1. Unless you have tried it successfully in a race or RR, DO NOT try a big caffeine boost mid race. I've ruined two races doing just that. The small amount of caffiene in a Coke (6 oz of coke = 1/12th the amount of caffeine in a cup of coffee) or a "spiked" gel is OK, but slamming 200 mg at a time mid race may not be your thing. Gotta test it out first.

    2. I stick with my thought that your brain has to start ignoring the messages from your legs after hour 3.5 or 4. This is the world cyclists rhapsodize about - learning how to tolerate, or even embrace "suffering" Your legs are trained to handle the workload, you just have to get them working. That's why I suggest focussing externally instead of internally towards the end of the bike - using those who are slowing down in front of you to drive yourself on. You'll be amazed at what your legs will do at mile 90-112 of the bike if you just stop thinking about how much they are tired, or hurt, or whatever, and start thinking about how powerful you are feeling by passing all those people, or by keeping your watts up.

    I never fail to be amazed at how well I can run after I've bike harder than I thought I was able (yet still within my limits). "Trust your training".

  • If I were you, I'd learn the following lessons:

    • Riding 112 miles is just hard. It gets a little easier, but my personal phunometer is nearly always pegged at 4hrs, on just about every ride. It "can" be better on race day, because there's lots to observe, think about manage, etc...but there's also a lot going on that can encourage you to do stupid shit. But, in the end, very few rides are still fun/enjoyable after 4hrs. 4hrs is a loonnggg time to be sitting on a bike seat, craning your neck to look up the road.
    • You didn't tell us how many calories per hour you had? How much water? Did you weigh yourself before/after?
    • If after riding easy for an hour, you observe that it becomes much harder in the last hour or two...just think about how much worse it could truly by if you DON'T ride easy for that hour? Then go over to the "calc'ing TSS for training rides" thread (or something like that) in Power Forum and download Matts spreadsheet, then play around with the numbers per hour. I laid out my IMWI pacing as 1hr intervals. You really see how little effect, on Pnorm and Pavg, going very easy the first hour has on your final ride numbers.

    Bottomline, I would use this ride as a lesson in the value of riding easy for the first hour because, as bad as you felt in the later half of your ride, it could have been MUCH worse

  • I've heard how the RRs and race day are supposed to be the "easiest" days of the season in regards to intensity.  I guess I took that to heart and expected it to be a cakewalk image  Perhaps I was holding back because I want to make sure I have a good run.  Al, I'll try to stick to the mindset you mentioned.

     

    Add'l info:

     

    I had 275 cal/hour of concentrated Infinit in 48oz of water (per my consultation with Infinit) and 96oz of water over 6 hrs (will most definitely bump that water intake WAY up during the race). 

     

    Weight before = 138

    Weight after = 136

     

    Sweat Rate:

    138-136 = 2 lbs + 9 lbs (total fluids consumed) = 11 lbs fluid loss in 6 hrs (29oz/hr)

    Weather was good for riding: mostly overcast with sun in the last 2 hrs (temps low 60's to mid 80's). Doubt it will be that nice during the race!

     
  • RR/Raceday is easiest on intensity and hardest on mental fu (hence the four keys all being pretty much about the head game image) Al's mindset is a good one, and personally I find staying inside my box and focusing on what I can do in the next minute to be really helpful in those last hours on the bike.
  • For what it's worth, my RR #2 My goal was 187w (IF 70%) and just sit on that all day:

    0-1:00 187w

    1:00-2:00 187w

    2:00-3:00 188w

    3:00-4:00 181w

    4:00-5:00 168w (starting to daydream, losing concentration, NOT bonking)

    5:00-5:42 158w (last 4 miles in town, more turns, more coasting, feet alittle sore, ready to get off bike, NOT bonking)

    For me, it's a mental thing, just not looking a powermeter as religiously, just losing focus alittle, never felt I was physically doing poorly. It's amazing how alittle let up mentally afftected my wattage. At IMLOU the last 24 miles or so is net downhill with the last 10 miles flat. Really easy to let up the power output despite MPH staying consistent.

  • You might try some food there around hour four, like a reward thing, to get you focused. Again, something to look forward to and not totally new. I "treated" myself with a raspberry cream powerbar gel...yum.
Sign In or Register to comment.