Ironman St. George Overview - Good Read
Davis Ambrose forwarded this to me so I thought I would post for those of us doing this race in 117 days. Good stuff and sounds very ENesque, including the power to kilo stuff.
John
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The Corner: Kona via Utah
By Gordo Byrn
10/7/2009
Gordo breaks down the Ironman St. George Course
I read a few course descriptions prior to checking out the course. They made the bike course sound like it was running through a combination of Death Valley and the Moon. Personally, I think that this is one of the most beautiful IM courses out there. The designer did a great job creating a course that is varied, picturesque and safe.
When you look at the bike course profile, you will get the impression that the course is much steeper than reality. While there is plenty of climbing on the route, it happens much more slowly than the profile will lead you to believe. Athletes that are used to racing Ironman Florida will need to add at least an hour to their time expectations.
My #1 piece of advice: Do not race blind. Figure out some way to get to St. George over the next six months to check out the bike course and make sure that you repeat my test workout (two laps of The Loop). The reason I recommend the journey is the course is 'slow' for the first 50 miles and you will be depressed with your time unless you manage your expectations by training on site.
I had a question about what type of athlete is best suited to this course. The course is suited to an athlete with strong power-to-weight but with a twist. I would not measure in terms of functional threshold power to weight (FTP/KG). Rather, I would measure in terms of Half Ironman watts per kilo. Using myself as an example 250w / 75 kg is 3.3 HIM watts per kilo. If you are a male amateur athlete then, I suspect that, you'll need to be close to that ratio to contend for a Kona slot here.
For the technically minded, I would use average HIM power (not normalized, and exclude zeroes). I would also only count the HIM bike ride as valid if the athlete was able to run within 7% of their non-triathlon Half Marathon time (I ran 1:22:30 off the bike after that 250w effort).
If you look at the marathon profile then you will see two solid climbs on each loop. This course is going to favor the efficient runner. Here, I would define efficiency in terms of maximum sustainable pace at the bottom of your Steady intensity zone. Again, for the technically minded, this course will favor the athlete with the highest pace at aerobic threshold. The combination of the bike and run climbs will take "big engine" athletes out of the picture. There is a TON of ground to be made up from being able to run well.
Skills - despite all the rollers and climbs, the course is NOT technical. The descent is straightahead and easy to navigate. The main skill required is pace management through the short climbs. For this reason, I think that most athletes will benefit from a road set-up (STI shifting) with clip-on aerobars. Athletes with aggressive TT set-ups with low front ends and/or brake hoods that are far from their hips will experience substantial back pain from all the climbing on the course.
Gearing - you can check my bike file in detail to see my cadence at various parts of the course. I use 50/34 gearing with an 11-28 cassette and had to stand in three places on each loop. While it might have been nice to have a 55-11 for a couple sections of the bike course, I bet my overall time would benefit from rolling-up zeros (no power output) at high speed, and eating/drinking. If you are mid-, or back-, of the pack then consider a triple chain ring. If you don't believe me then run for an hour after you complete the Two-Loop workout.
Altitude - lots of talk about the altitude at St George. Personally, I think that it is a non-event. The highest speed part of the bike course is the "top" and the thinner air (and smooth road surface) will help, rather than hinder you. If you are feeling breathless then it's your pacing rather than your location.
Swim - it is going to be COLD. I was swimming late summer at the end of a week that saw 90-100F daily highs. Even then, I needed a fullsuit to be comfortable in the morning. Practice a dry-land warm-up and experiment withneoprene caps and booties (I use the BlueSeventy ones). Because you are likely to be cold coming out of the water, consider toe covers, full-finger gloves and arm-warmers for the bike.
Heat - the afternoon high was over 100F the day that we did our ride. That said, I was pretty comfortable with a vented helmet and full-zip jersey. Because this race is going to be quite long (due to a hills), I would lean towards vents.
Wheels – because of all the pace changes, light climbing wheels will dominate aero dynamics on this course. Better yet, get yourself a set of light aerowheels - I ran my 404s with PowerTap and they worked great. The only guy that I'd recommend a disc for would be my buddy Chris McDonald (super strong, larger guy that copes with spikes well). For us mortals, you need to do everything possible to minimize the torque spikes in your legs.
Blocks - the bike course splits into three key 25-mile blocks.?
The First 25: stay calm, get your HR settled and establish hydration/nutrition. It's going to be a long day.?
The Second 25: this is your first journey from the bottom to the top of the course. You are going to witness some totally insane riding from stressed out competition that big-rings some of the steep rollers. Stay within yourself and remember your training ride on the course.?
The Third 25: this is the second journey from the bottom to the top of the course. You will now see TOTAL carnage from the athletes that raced the first 50 miles of the bike. This course is extremely unforgiving if you crack (though not as bad as Placid because you have a late downhill to regroup).
Eating - when you turn onto Hwy 18 eat and drink plenty before the fast downhill to town. The downhill is so fast that you are unlikely to be able to eat/drink. So... you need to tank up across the top of the course to make sure that you have your calories in your system. I experimented and was able to get my HR under 110 bpm at the end of my ride.Focus on fueling and recovery in the high speed sections of the course.
Bike Position - you need a few different positions to reflect the nature of the course. You need to be very comfortable in all of them: straight ahead TT (standard); uphill TT (choke up on bars); high-speed descent (minimal frontal area); long climbs (sitting up); and standing (for the short steep rollers). Comfort is power on a course like this – my choice would be a road set-up with clip ons.
Saddle Position - while I used my "road" frame, I bumped the saddle forward so that my thigh:torso angle wasn't too tight on the aerobars.
Finally, be patient. The smart athlete will be able to make up over an hour in the second half of the race. You don’t need to “go fast” to do well here but you will need to run well after a variable bike ride. Set your bike ceilings and practice riding as evenly as possible through rolling terrain.
Comments
I was a little intrigued by Gordo's comments regarding bike set up; road bike with clip ons. I've just spent time and effort getting my bike fit dialed in with TTbikefit and I am now much more aero. Not sure why you would use a road bike set-up when you can just sit-up and move around on the seat to reduce the seat angle when you have to. Any other thoughts from others?
I agree with him with regards to the hilly run course. Stick to the pacing guidelines, knock off excess weight now.
Looks like a fun race!
tom
I too found the points about bike set up to be interesting. I'm not terribly smart in these matters, but I sure wouldn't think that a course with a lot of "slower" hills would necessarily favor a road set up. My thought would be that a road set up might be appropriate if you had a progression of steep, sustained climbs that led to a fair bit of long technical descents. It still seems like more aero is better...I'm definitely interested in other thoughts on this.
I do take comfort in the fact that the EN race execution protocol would be perfect for this race! That helps a ton. I think we'll be able to hone our power gears well by the time we're on course in SG.
I worry a bit about the cold, which I knew would be a fact. He didn't say what the water temp was when he was swimming there. I seem to find myself swimming in the cold in races more than I'd really like to given my poorly suited physiology.
Now I'm wondering if instead of going to Tucson in March for riding I should try to get to SG...
My notes:
Finally, it sounds like this course is PERFECT for the EN athlete! As a well drilled, trained, rehearsed execution machine you WANT hills, climbs, descents, wicked hard runs, etc. You want situations that force others to make (wrong) decisions.
I have just reread this and I am actually getting excited now. Up until now I was apprehensive about this event. I signed up on a whim before they posted the elevation profiles. I would have passed on SG and signed up for FLA or AZ instead had I known.
I am definitely a big guy and HATE climbing! But I know that EN Bike Execution Protocol will flatten the course out and will make this a more than do-able course for me. Since I highy doubt this will be a PR course for me, my expectations are to just have fun and rack up as much road kill as possible after mile 18!
I did my current watts to kilo calc and if I am at my race weight of 205 (what I was at IM CdA last June) then I hit the 3.3 noted in the article. However, I am hoping to hit 200 by race day. Higher watts, lower weight all the better.
Also, and to touch on Tom's point, I/we live with hills. It is a love/hate thing for me. Love the area/hate riding the hills. Everywhere we go there are hills, rollers, longish ascents/descents, etc. So being on a TT bike on this course won't be an issue or anything new for me. However, will be spending more time on Mt. Diablo this winter.
Rich, I will be looking into the SRAM 26/11 this week. Thanks for the 411.
Olivia, what were your dates for Tucson? SG is a 9 hour drive and if I can find another friend to road trip with me I may hook up with you if you are open to it. Just can't conflict with the SoCal/NorCal EN Camp. And need to wifes blessing. And sorry about the countown. I couldn't tell if you were joking or not.
Ohh no...I think I should have used a smilie...I was definitely joking!! Sorry!!
I've been talking with some of the boyz (including Coach P) about a Tucson trip the same weekend as the NorCal camp. But I'm starting to wonder whether the mods to the IM plans that the RnP have made may change where I place my big weeks and thus make that weekend not ideal. In which case I might bag that and plan a sojourn to SG. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive necessarily, but time would be a consideration...especially given the drive to SG (just over 9 hours for me too from Denver)...especially if I ended up doing both Tucson and SG...talk about getting clearance from the tower.
So...long and short of it...yeah, sounds good if we can swing it based on what makes the most sense for preparedness, and maintenance of sanity among the various households...
Sounds like a new cassette would be a good idea. I'm always fine on my local climbs with what I've got (well except for tbe time I did my annual 4th of July Mt. Evans climb less than 2 weeks after CDA...then I needed a triple, and a different cassette). BUT I don't want to FRY my legs...seems like an easy enough mod for a little extra range....hmmm
I was curious as to how this compares to other IM's also. There are other hilly courses like LP, Canada and France. Gordo's comment that it will be an hour slower than Florida on the bike doesn't say a lot to me.
I just did a quick search and found this good blog about the SG course here. About 9200 feet of climbing on the bike.
This map shows IM Canada to be 1288 meters of climbing (4225 feet)
IM France has about 2437 meters of climbing from this map. (7995 feet)
According to the SG link above, the author states the run course is either up or down, nothing flat.
Agree with Rich though, I think everyone going in with a race execution plan will be much better off then those that don't have one.
tom
John, thanx for the post
I'm heading over on January 22nd (Friday) to the ride the bike loop, then I'll be doing a local 1/2 Marathon in the area the following day. I'll let you know what I think. I'd be happy to meet up with any of you if you can make it. I plan to ride the course once per month and would very much like to meet up with any of you IMSG candidates from the EN Haus.
I pulled up a Map My Ride file from IM SG and it looks like the total ascent on the bike is actually 4,902.
http://www.mapmyride.com/ride/unite...4817482692
Mark, IM CdA is ~2,700 and mostly rollers whereas IM SG is long and pretty steady climbs for each loop.
I am seriously thinking of bailing on this. After much deliberation and knowing myself, I am not excited about all the climbing. In fact, I fooking hate climbing!!!! I try and get myself pumped up (like in previous posts) but just can't get past the fact. IM FLA or IM AZ are much better suited courses for me. I jumped on IMSG cuz my local friends were doing it and it was BEFORE they posted the routes/elevation stuff.
This may end up being an Oly year for me.
You do not know me from Adam. I am sure the rest of the folks in the October out-season have noticed my insecurity issues. I sucked my thumb until like 8th grade. When I went to college, I called home two or three times a week because I missed my Mom.
I appreciate your honesty and all, but mentally I am having a hard time with this race. I am looking at a 2-hour swim, 7-hour bike, and a 5-hour marathon. I need you to lie to me and tell me everything will be fine (that is what my Mom does), come up with some other reason for not racing.
Can you edit your last post? Take out everything from "I am seriously thinking about bailing on this..." and down. Change it to something like "I have a conflict and might not be able to race."
I hope this post doesn't make me sound too much like a prick and ruin my chances of recruitment into the sleeper cell. I really am freaking cool (at least that is what my Mom said) and I even have friends and a life.
You have until middle of March for a partial refund (I checked on this about fifty times the past couple of months). If you want to go for pre-ride before you bail, I plan to make some crazy road trip Thursday afternoon Feb 25, on the course Friday & Saturday then back in the car Saturday afternoon. I have been trying to decide wither to drive or fly. If other somewhat local guys were going to drive and we could car pool, I would drive for sure.
Hope you guys all have a great day, only 108 or so days left.
In the mean time, I will focus on this part of the thread:
"Finally, it sounds like this course is PERFECT for the EN athlete! As a well drilled, trained, rehearsed execution machine you WANT hills, climbs, descents, wicked hard runs, etc. You want situations that force others to make (wrong) decisions"
"Very interesting read. First thing that comes to mind is that EN folks should do well if they execute properly. For the bike, watching watts on the uphills will be really important. I think EN is pretty dialed in on gearing and don't worry about this area. Look to see a a lot of non EN people blowing up on the run due to poor bike execution and focus on speed rather than power."
and my favorite:
"I am definitely a big guy and HATE climbing! But I know that EN Bike Execution Protocol will flatten the course out and will make this a more than do-able course for me. Since I highy doubt this will be a PR course for me, my expectations are to just have fun and rack up as much road kill as possible after mile 18!"
Tom, that's easily among the funniest things I've read in this forum!
Tom, I am LOL!!!! You made my day!
I just keep thinking about Rich's comments in the past about finding a course that best suits you. IMSG does not. But that is ME, not you. and thanks for posting my own comment at the end of your note.
Beotch! 
Oh, and your mom just called me. She said I am a pussy and the you should Harden The Fook UP!
Big hugs to you cuz it sounds like you need one.
John
tom
One thing's for sure, if I went with the the course/conditions at x race don't suit me/my body, I would be a duathlete. The cold water at practically every race I do causes me serious issues, emotional and physical. Ugh! I dread the possibility that this swim in May is going to be as cold as IMCDA 2008....
Anyway, what goes up also comes down, and we see that on the course profile. And in my experience the guys with some mass freakin' wail on the descents. There is that!
I'd really like to see you out there, and would love for you to race, but if you're gonna HATE it, then it ain't worth it. Only you'll know that. And regardless of your decision. You know we support your best interests and your sanity above all.
But really...with all of us there to party with post race...what's a little pre-party climbing, especially for someone as fit as you!
OK, damn it! I don't drink beer and Tom hasn't responded to my text for 5 of his vDot points instead. But I have *decided* to do the damn race and I have Mr. Brasher to thank for pushing me over the edge.
Goal is just go and have fun! Period. Follow EN training and race day protocols. Other than that, count road kill!
And to add, my wife gave me a hall pass for going to St. George on February 25th - the 28th. So, Mr. Brasher, if you want some company I am in. I may have a couple of other friends joining.
With all that said, no more drama . . . . LET'S DO IT!
And I forgot . . . I HAVE to meet Olivia! She is my hero. Comeback kid! Nuf sed.
P
YAY!!! JOHN'S IN FOR IMSG!!!! WOOO HOOO!!
(what else do you think we can get him to do, while we have him all softened up?)
John, so nice to see you not being a bitch....just sayin'
.
I'll put the date on my calendar, should be able to make it.
Alright John... back on the St. George horse..... Tom, thanks for your post. Not only did it completely crack me up, but you were effective in getting John back on board. I'm interested in a Feb. trip to St. George if I can work it out. A bit concerned that the travel time may be better spend actually training in the hills around here (the bay area).... Looking forward to meeting you all in St. George if not sooner.
The road trip is on for me for sure the weekend of Feb 25th. I have a brother who lives in DC in town for a wedding that is going to drive down from Salt Lake. Another one might drive down from Boise. Stephen Hiatt (here in EN) is a few hours away and might make the trip as well. If I end up driving there are a few other local guys that might want to tag along. We could end up with a good-sized group.
Tom if you are passing out vDot points I could use at least five.
Mark, it is a lot of driving, 18 to 20 hours. It would probably make more sense to train locally. I probably would not do it if my little brother were not going to be in town. That said… It would be freaking awesome if we had a large group doing some reconnaissance and meeting up that weekend.
Back to the grind...
John, you were busting my gut with the comments of doubt. DUDE, I know you can do this race!!! You're one of the strongest on the EN team.
I am definitely going. I will be driving from the bay area as I want my bike with me. I drive to SoCal a few times a year and it is 6.5+ hours each way so adding 3+ to a trip is not biggie. I have learned to love audiobooks. Only caveats for me bailing are if there is a storm in the Sierra's (Lake Tahoe Area) and the drive time increases to 15 hours each way or there is rain in the forecast in SG.
@Mark - Right now I am solo. Have a call out to local peeps and will see if anyone jumps on. You can jump on of you want. But we have plenty of hills here in the SF Bay Arae to train. I just wanna see the course and it is close enough. Plus it will be fun to get to new scenery for a long bike.
@Olivia and Stephen - Love to have you join. The more the merrier.
@Rich - Love to have ya join. Make it an impromptu mini-camp? Can you get the gal you interviewed for the IMSG podcast last year give us the grand tour?
I want this to be stress free and relaxed, but would love to schedule at least a dinner with everyone one night and maybe at least all start together on the ride and run and then everyone do there own thing after the first few miles together. Hopefully Olivia will let me hang with her and I can lasso her seat post up the hills.
Looking forward to it.
John
I forgot the local guys here doing St George are also doing Oceanside and can't get the sau. I will drive down your way (minus a roof rack) if that works. I also think i can get a free condo but it is a long shot, I will know for sure early next week...
OK it looks like I get a pass to go to SG in Feb too! But will have to give up miss Tucson. Honestly, I'm OK with not having to get on a plane and deal with taking my bike apart, etc. in order to get in some good outdoor long rides/runs on hilly terrain. And this way we get to know other members of the IMSG Assault Crew. Not terribly thrilled about the drive out/back, but road trips can be good times for meditating.Especially through some of the nowhere lands between CO and St. George.
Looking into lodging options now. Also realizing that I don't like my location for the May visit. Going to see about switching that. But first, must go to LBS to try to get a different skewer for the traininer. The current one isn't working too well...almost rode out of the trainer on Thurs...
John - I'll be riding so fast your lasso will get stuck in your spokes before you even get it close to me. HA! Right!
There's a good month + between now and then...why do I have this feeling that you're going to show up with some secret power stash that you're going to unleash? What do they call that? Sand something...
Mark and Steve - Join us!!
@Tom - DOH! How much damage to the box? Car? When I drove into my garage with my bike on the top 3 weeks before IM CdA last year my heart stopped. ~$500 damage to the bike and $3,600 damage to the car. I now have a rear bike rack cuz I KNOW I will do it again.
@Olivia - WOOHOO! I do have a favor - would you mind adding me to whatever reservations you make in SG? My own room, of course.
Or letting me know where you are staying and I will call. I suck at picking decent places to stay. I have to tell my nightmare place I stayed the night before a marathon a few years ago.
Looks like we have a nice crew going. This is gonna be fun. I am just not sure of Rich will find places along the bike route to get his espresso's. He may have to go without. DOH!
Re: the espresso/coffee. I have phenomenal thermos that I use when I commute by bike. Goes anwhere anytime with no spills or leaks. We can fill that thing up and Rich can carry it in his jersey!
So...I'm booking. No bailing now.
925-548-5916