30/30's and cadence: trying not to overthink
Ok, ok, I know, we've beaten the cadence horse to death around here, and I know the general consensus (ride at a self-selected cadence, it all sort of works itself out when using power).
However, I was thinking about something this morning, while doing 30/30's, and don't have the answer. Or, I can argue both sides of it without convincing myself. So I thought I'd throw this one to the group. How do you do your 30/30's?
- Same (ish) cadence as my FTP-type intervals, but in a higher gear
- Higher cadence than my FTP-type intervals, in a similar gear
Thinking it through, since power is basically [Force x RPM], #2 should be working on your ability to generate more RPM at the same force, whereas #1 should be working on more force at the same RPM.
We often say that fitness is in the muscles, and use the weight lifting analogy. I'd think that #1 would be more consistent with that line of thinking.
However, we also acknowledge that neuromuscular coordination/firing is important, and perhaps #2 is more consistent with that?
BTW, I was thinking about this because I was kinda naturally doing #2, finding it feeling not too bad, and switched over to #1 for the last 2 sets of 5x30/30, which felt more difficult, but also more rewarding (hard to describe).
Love to hear any thoughts on this.
Mike
Comments
#1 is x rpms in a set gear (50/16 for example) producing Y wattage
#2 is x+ rpms in same gear (50/16 example) would produce Y+ wattage.
Am I misunderstanding you?
Are you asking about producing the same wattage but varying the cadence?
I like to do sets with 90+ cadence at 350 watts (using the 30" on as an example) but do the following set with 75 rpms in a stiffer gear producing the same 350 watts, then go back to a higher cadence for the next set (same wattage). I breath harder with the higher cadence but seem to be able to hold the gear longer than low cadence stuff. My legs fatigue pushing low cadences.
Vince
If the watts are the same for both cadences, it's the same amount of work. However, at a lower cadence, your muscles are creating more force per pedal stroke than at a higher cadence.
For me, I can do a 30" interval at a higher cadence without tiring. However, when I'm doing a 2.5' interval, I get tired trying to hold a higher cadence after 1' and must decrease my rpm's in order to hold the watts. The same thing happens with my FTP intervals: if I start with a higher cadence, I can't hold that cadence and make the required watts after 6-8 minutes and must decrease the rpms. Weird--I'm become a gear grinder.
So to finally answer your question: I still like to "train" myself to spin at higher rpms (right now my avg cadence for the 2.5' is 83 rpm) for no real good reason except that Lance looks so cool spinning at those high rpms.
At this point, I'm not really worried about it as I believe that it will all work itself out when it gets warm here and I'm riding outside.
I hear your question as: does #1 or #2 provide the best training effect, meaning most likely to get me stronger. I would think using a variety of gears and cadences would work best, as that is most like how we actually race. In other words, assuming you are trying to push 250 watts on each interval, doing some at lower RPM (<75) with higher gear, others at very high RPM (>105) with lower gear, and still others closer to 90 RPM would help build what we're looking for, which is an ability to push constant watts on all angles of terrain.
Now, if you're training for FL or AZ, it might be a different question: what's the most efficient RPM for a 112 mile time trial with little terrain variation with a 26 mile run following? But even for those races, training with variable cadences in the intervals might still be most beneficial, to work all the neuro-musclular connections, and give you the biggest engine for that steady state time trial.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. Watts the same for each scenario.
@Kitima, yes, same 'amount' of work. I'm just trying to think through whether there's a better training effect from one vs. the other, as Al points out.
Just to be clear, this isn't keeping me up late at night.
But I'm thinking through the philosophy of "fitness is in the muscles", and that VO2max is like lifting a bigger weight. Well, if I could bench press 150 now and wanted to bench press 175, I wouldn't start bench pressing 150 faster, I'd put more weight on the bar. Don't know if it's analogous, but it's what I'm wondering. Option #2 seems like benching 150 faster, whereas option #1 seems more like putting more weight on the bar.
Mike
I like variety. I have a patient that was a former Cat 1 rider...primarily a climber. He LOVES SFR's (slow frequency revolutions I think). He likes to climb a 4-5% grade at 45 rpms pushing an aerobic wattage. He feels very stronglyl that this allows him to build power for climbing...not sprinting.
Of course if you chug along like a diesel does it shoot your legs for the run as a triathlete? Seems to work for Wellington of course her BMI is outstandling low by observation.
I think training in all ranges has benefit with regards to cadence but we ultimately will go to our default cadence on the road as the race dictates. On the trainer my cadence drops 10-15 rpms in regards to comfort/RPE. On the road the wattage is 10-15 watts higher and so is my cadence.
Not sure I answered anything but I'm sitting in Peets coffee and the buzz just transferred to my keyboard.
Vince
P
I try to look at it from a very fundamental perspective. A periodic change in stimulus is required to improve. However, changing too often can definitely be counterproductive. Now that change in stimulus can and should come in 3 different forms:
1. An increase in volume
2. An increase in intensity
(these are the obvious ones)
3. A change via something like cadence
So, mixing up the cadence is a good thing. I just wouldn't randomly mix it up too often. Try a specific cadence routine for a block of 4 or so weeks then change the routine. Repeat.
Thanks, Chris
If you want legs that look like Jan Ulrich's...slow cadence (do not forget the super secret pharma too). I watched the 2005 time trial where Lance passed Ulrich. Shortly before the pass they have a video-cycle following Jan and show a close up of his hamstrings. Absolutely inhuman!!! I'm sure he can't run well with those but they are ultra cool.
V