Running 'niggle' - just checking..........
Hi folks - hoping for some advice, being a running newbie I have no experience of anything similar:
- have started getting a soreness around the Head of fibula on one leg (typically my left leg which due to imbalances usually gets overworked). The soreness comes from running and also swimming; seems as tho' its a ligament flexion thing stemming from foot flexion - intensive cycling doesn't affect it at all (guess the foot flexion is limited).
Icing takes down the minimal swelling and soreness in the area only for it to start again the next run/swim - it doesn't stop me from running or swimming but needs attention afterwards, icing takes it away completely. At threshold pace I can't feel a thing - slower LRP type 'plods' tend to affect it more.
Don't want it to get worse altho its completely manageable at the moment - any tips/advice? Just something that I have to contend with as part of getting my body used to running impact?
Thanks, Dave
Comments
Dave, I'll leave it to the smart folks to diagnose and recommend a course of action. I'll just suggest that, per your comment above, running really shouldn't hurt. In general, if you have to ice something in order to not feel pain, it's probably not "normal".
You've come to the right place. The smart peeps here are good hands to be in.
Mike
Dave, running newbie or not, it shouldn't hurt or require icing to remove swelling. especially not easy runs. fatigue and soreness from a hard effort is another story entirely.
My thoughts on what you've said so far is that you have two things to think about. The first is that you've got some tight calves to start working on. The second is that there are likely some alignment issues to contend with as well. If your heel starts tilting one way or the other when you land on your foot, the muscles on the inside and outside of the foot (like the one that runs for you ankle up to the head of that fibula). Sometimes that can happen because of a tight calf and sometimes that can happen as a result shoe selection that's not right for you.
Typically, as your do speed work, you're form improves because you have to speed up your cadence and land more quickly (which usually forces people to land more on the front half of the their foot instead of their heel/rearfoot). As you slow down you resort to a more relaxed stride and all of the bad little habits we develop as non runners come out of the woodwork.
So...to get you started: 1) hit up the wiki and look for the section on stretches. It will be under recent additions and there is a link to the old 3.0 forum and post of pictures, instructions, etc. 2) what kind of shoes are you in? have you ever had anyone look at your foot to see if you pronate, supinate, or just have a flexible foot that does all of the above?
Hi Leigh - thanks for your good input. After I posted the above I carried on with some research & it does sound as though its a tightness of the anterior tibialis - as you mentioned, the muscle that runs from foot to tip of the fibula. I use the TP-Therapy/Triger point stuff and found a massage technique for that area, I have been missing it in my daily massage - although the muscle tends to be easier to reach with the fingertips (digging deep) rather than the massage ball. Also some good info on the TP site re the soleus and its part in the 'chain'.
Interesting point about running form - at threshold + I do feel more efficient and flowing whereas at LRP to HMP I feel like a lumbering plodder!
My shoes were new 10weeks ago, running store video'd me on the treadmill and they recommended a neutral shoe (mizuno waves).
Massaging the ant' tib' did take away the soreness in the area - was going to try a pre-run massage today (instead of the usual post-exercise) - I do have a tight right hip which can result in a functional leg length discrepancy so have been doing physio work on glute/hip strengthening.
Perhaps I do need some motion control shoes afterall altho' a little concerned about forcing my feet into a position - thinking focusing on running form may be the best policy?
Appreciating your input Leigh, thanks again!
Dave
PS. checked out your stretches, look good and will be trying them ASAP!
Dave, I added a video to Nemo's calf post to help out with this. Explains the different stuff moving around back there and shows you some ways to start loosening up the whole area so we can better diagnose what the real culprit is.
Thing to remember with the anterior tib is that it builds up tension if you don't push off all of the way. When you fully push off of your foot with your big toe, the ankle relaxes during the swing phase and resets the foot for landing. If you shorten that part up, you have to pull your toes up so you don't trip. That means that the muscle never gets to really relax during your stride and just gets pounded. Keep digging it out and be sure to start working on the back calf muscles as well.
As far as shoes- Do you have a normal arch? high arch? no arch? can you flatten your arch to the floor if your rotate your ankle in while standing barefoot? treadmill tests are usually not long enough to see what's really going on as you loosen up and settle in. Plus you run better because you're being watched. it's pretty interesting to see the differences when you go in and out of the room and leave the camera running.
Sooo...sounds like it might be time to change up your shoes and to make sure your bike set up isn't contributing as well. Most bike fitters have your cleats and shoes set up so that you really use your calves. That's great for true cyclists, but runners tend to have stiffer ankles, so we don't always have that must motion available to use. I've found that most tri-peeps benefit from moving their cleats back a bit and dropping their saddle height the same amount of movement (yup, it's crazy small- a mm maybe?). Another factor can be the actual bike shoes your using. Narrow shoes with a flexible foot and tight ankle can cause some problems as well. Do you ever get any tenderness under the ball of your foot?
Just some things to think about.
Hi Leigh - thanks again, this is great info!
Regarding the Ant' Tib and push-off you mentioned - I have realised that I don't feel as tho' I have a high back leg/foot lift, at slower cadence I tend to shuffle along without lifting my knees and 'flicking' my heals back (if that makes sense?) - is this what you feel could be affecting the anterior fib? I'm trying to rectify this in every run I do now.
Also, did the foot arch test you mentioned: standing barefoot, the left arch almost closes completely flat to the floor whereas on the right foot I can still easily place my fingers into the arch. I do recall that at a chiro assessment a year ago they mentioned a slight flat-foot on the left.
Any recommnedation on ways fwd Leigh? If the flat left foot is contributing to the problem (which OK is manageable but appears to re occur, a worry considering I'm just in week 5 of run training!) how would a motion control shoe help, could it just throw out the right side instead? OR, just go the neutral shoe route and perhaps the area will strengthen naturally - I've come from a bike only training background so getting used to running impact.
Thanks again Leigh,
Dave
PS. just watched your video, great insight! To add to the above - the example you showed of the lifted foot (while running) pronating to the side is what I seem to do on my left, kinda roll down the outside of the foot on foot plant.
Also, re: running shoes - I have an pair of Nike Structure Triax which I wear casually, not for running - when I wear them the medial support (the beefed-up outer) causes my foot to supinate and feels odd and imbalanced.
Maybe a completely different issue but I do have a discount available on a pair or Newton Sir Isaacs, maybe they would encouage me to toe-off more readily? Big can of worms that one I know.....
I would actually start out with a regular stability shoe versus motion control to help the left foot out. You're feet and lower legs are only going to get stronger as you get some miles under your belt, but to start, the support would be a good thing.
Focus on good form on your warm ups- don't worry about speed at all. Once you land on your foot, focus on pulling all the way through and then fully pushing off on your toes (hip extending, knee straight, pushing off your big toe). When you start to focus on landing forefoot/midfoot most people start to shorten up their stride and stop pushing off all of the way. My advice would be that, work on pushing off the back foot and letting the leg relax and land as it swings through.
Lastly- I know it's the OS and that the emphasis is on get fast, but if things are sore you might want to play with the schedule and build in a little more recovery. Hard to do that kind of stuff as a new runner.
maybe spread the runs out a bit more - say MWF+sunday? out of curiosity, what plan are you using?? might be worth bumping down a difficulty level as well. still lots of work in all of the plans. a little less volume could go a long way for you this time of year. Last thing you want to do is follow a plan into a wall.
fire away with any questions
Hi Leigh, thanks again for your input - think you're right on the plans, probably could do with intermediate run plan but still have advanced bike. Not getting overly fatigued (based on my experience of bike only plans) but yes getting sore knees and now the Ant'Tib issue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k8aEqXjOG4
On the ant' tib - the stretching and massage you prescribed is working - finding my left leg to be especially tight (the troublesome one).
Had a buddy take some video of me today, would value your (and the rest of the Haus) input - video is a bit messy, was restricted time-wise and this was the only stretch of road with no ice!
Should've titled the movie 'Bambi on Ice' !
What I immediately noticed was:
- confirmation that any fwd lean is from waist only, i.e. I feel as though I'm leaning fwds!
- Heel first.
- lack of arm-swing on the right; I don't orientate evenly.
Generally looks a mess and pleased to have done this so early in my run training - I know I have symmetry issues (which I'm working on) - any advice on technique would be great ('the Book' does have great info i noticed).
See what you all think! Yikes! Don't hold back!
Dave
the biggest things I see are:
1) short stride
2) heel strike
3) lack of push off
an easy way to tell if that's happening while you're running is to listen. try to be less noisy on your feet. focus on extending your hip and pushing all the way through off your big toe. this will help the anterior tib relax so that it can focus on controlling the rate at which your forefoot hits the ground. without a full push off, it has to work double duty and that's when you get the clown feet slapping the ground sound.
does that make sense?
cheers!
Thanks again!
Dave