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HIM Prior To IM - The Pros Are Doing It!

This question has been asked a few times with no real consensus, but this past weekend has me thinking.....

The 70.3 World Championships were held yesterday....3 weeks and 6 days prior to the IM World Championships.  Crowie and Lieto go 1st/2nd, clearly racing all out.  Other potential contenders for Kona were also in attendance.  Same thing for the ladies and probably many serious AG'ers as well.

So I know these folks are pros and elites, with years of experience and top-notch fitness.  But who says you can't do a HIM 4 weeks prior to an IM 'A' race.  Are they that much smarter, or better at recovering?  Despite their fitness, they still pay a physical price for full-on racing. 

I have an opportunity to do a great tune-up race in Phoenix 4 weeks prior to IMAZ.  The swim is in Tempe Town Lake and the run course basically mirrors IMAZ.  I figured I would do it without skipping a beat on training.  The only switch I would make is not doing the long run on Thursday (will get 13.1 on Sunday).  I would still do long ride Saturday and Sunday ABP ride would be HIM race pace anyway.  Swim is zero cost on the body.  I have to take Monday off anyway for a prior committment.  I can be back at my regular training on Tuesday and will still plan to do my final race rehearsal the following Saturday.  Oh yeah.  And BTW.  I haven't raced at all this year and this is my only chance prior to IMAZ.

So I'm planning on signing up, but have decided to wait 48 hours to hear from the team.  Coaches, WSM's, and anyone else with an opinion should chime in.

Comments

  • @ Terry -- so based on your plan and since you have described this in a way that it isn't going to punch a hole in your training, you could do it. How many IM and HIM have you done before and what has been your experience with recovery from HIM and with execution from IM?

    Two fundamental questions for you:

    1. The question is how much fatigue will you be carrying into that week? And what will that do to your ability to complete the key workouts in weeks 4 and 3 out.  Everything I have read and experienced this year is that my ability to recover in that time period gets reduced/stretched out (could be because I am almost 50, but I believe cumulative fatigue plays a big part).
    2. What is your goal for racing the HIM? The two distances HIM and IM are not comparable, at all. Pace, race day strategies, nutrition, hydration, and body reactions are all very different btwn the two distances. If you goal is simply to have another race and test out your equipment in a race ... ...

    Good luck in your decision.

  • 1. Life of a pro = triathlon
    2. Life of average Joe = Job + triathlon + other "stuff"

    The difference between 1 and 2 is that Crowie and Lieto can go home, sit in their $10K recovery socks, sleep 16 hours, etc. Average Joe has to go to work, have a family, sleep 8 hours, etc. The recovery between 1 and 2 is very different. 4 weeks out of your IM you are winding down the training for those weeks and then heading into taper weeks. Adding an HIM means race + recovery week then into your taper weeks which means you'll likely not be at your peak for your race.
  • "Are they that much smarter, or better at recovering?"

    No, but I'd be careful comparing yourself to pros. More often than not, they are members of the lucky DNA club. They start with top shelf mitochondria and THEN they work their asses off.

    But no reason you can't do it with 4 weeks recovery and executing a race day will be good especially since you haven't raced recently.
  • I've done a 70.3 six weeks and seven weeks before my two IM's. I'd have no issue doing one four weeks out. I recover pretty quickly from a 70.3. I'm back to normal by the following weekend. I may not be blessed with the lucky DNA that makes me super fast but I can recover like a mofo, especially for someone over 40.

    I'm of the opinion that tapering is somewhat overrated. I'm starting to think doing a 70.3 heading into the taper in the two to three weeks prior to an IM would make sense for someone with good recovery. A good hard 5-6 hour workout in race conditions. Throw down the 70.3 and then cruise into taper mode for two weeks and then the IM. That'll run contrary to popular opinion but it would keep me sharp.

    I'm doing the Texas 70.3, Kemah International (Oly) and NOLA 70.3 in a three week span next April. I'd really consider adding IMTX to the mix four weeks later if it wasn't for the fact the Syracuse 70.3 is moving to June next year. I'd be way too drained to race again four weeks after IMTX.
  • I would say it is safe, but I certainly would not race it with the intesity that I would typically race HIM. It is a good opportunity to step back and work on proper pacing.
  • I did my first IM, IMFL06 in 13:51:22, then my 2nd at IMAZ07 (when it was still in April) in 13:51:25. Yes, only 3 seconds separation in 5 months.

    I did a HIM 2 weeks before IMAZ that year, down in Galveston TX (what became Lonestar/Galveston 70.3). Yes, only two weeks.

    That was a long time ago, right when I was getting into long course stuff. I have no doubt (now) that the HIM jeopardized my training and recovery for IMAZ. No way in heck I'd do it now, but 4 weeks I'd still consider - as long as it was a training day, not a full-blown tapered race.
  • My 2 cents - we aren't pros, we don't and can't train like them, and so we have to work inside 'real world constraints' that they don't have to contend with.

    You certainly CAN do the HIM prior to the IM - but I don't think THAT is the argument/question. The question is, is that an effective training tool for IM. My answer to that is no given the financial and fitness/recovery costs vs the benefits.
  • No one here has ever said you can't do it, or that you can't recover in time. It's more a matter of the ROI you are getting out of that workout and if it makes the most sense to do so. Also, consider the fact that the pros who raced at 70.3 champs this year and will also race at Kona didn't exactly have much choice in the matter. If they wanted to race both World Championships (and get $$$ since that's how they are paid), then they HAD to race 4 weeks apart. To that point, consider the recent blog post by Chrissy Wellington where she suggests that perhaps the 70.3 WC in Vegas should be moved to an earlier slot in the calendar (maybe 2 weeks) to allow Pro's the proper preparation for Kona:

    http://www.chrissiewellington.org/blog/the-kpr-and-more-some-thoughts-comments-and-suggestions/
  • @ Paul - This will be my 2nd IM (2nd IMAZ actually). I'm sure I'll have some fatigue, but probably not as much as normal since I know I'm not going to nail the long bikes in weeks 6 and 7. My only big bike training for the next 2 months will be on a one week vacation in Kona week 5 (will do first RR then) and the week + 2 weekends in Phoenix in weeks 8 & 9. As for goals, don't have any. Would not taper at all. But if I had a good swim, and executed an IF .8 ride, I could have a shot at sub-5 which would be a PR for me. Doesn't seem to make sense to, first of all, not get the medal (DNF so I don't have to run), and second of all, not run to my potential and blow a sub-5 if it's there.

    @ Jennifer - tend to agree with you, and I don't have $10K socks, but I do have that whole week off work in Phoenix.

    @ Bob - I've never had a problem recovering from HIM. Last year I did one 7 weeks out from IMAZ and got sick the week after. Never happened after any other HIM, but was first time in IM training. I did do a mini taper for that race.

    @ Jamison - would start out racing it, but if I wasn't feeling it on the bike, I would back off to IM race pace for the rest of the race

    @ Scott - that's what I'm thinking. Ignorance is bliss.

    @ Stephen - I'm of the opinion that it's not a question of whether HIM is prep for an IM, it is racing that is a good prep for IM. Other people around, nerves, course support, traffic, etc. I'm not an IM rookie anymore, but I just can't imagine showing up on race day having not done another race since last year's IMAZ.

    Some other thoughts.......

    It is true that I, like all of you, am an average person with a job, life, committments that are not triathlon. But that doesn't make us all the same. Within the haus we have average people that range from stay-at-home parents, to people who work part time at home, to corporate executives and road warriors in addition to many 8-to-5ers with weekends off. I am a heart surgeon that is on call practically every day/night during the week and at least every other weekend (sometimes more). That means I am always tied to a pager and I have a very unpredictable schedule. I get called out of workouts all the time. I also am nearly always tied to a range distance from the hospitals where I work. In addition, I live in Alaska where it's cold and the weather is unpredictable which means there have been 2 weekends in the last 2 1/2 months that I could ride long outside. My schedule and location also means that I haven't been able to get to a race anywhere all year. This is literally my first chance to race this year.

    So I'm not trying to convince myself, or anyone else, that this is a necessity. And I really don't want to blow my IM. But this seems to make sense for me as getting a little race experience and having a solid, long training day.

    Is there anyone out there besides Scott that has done one 5 or less weeks out?
  • Could you get the race experience at a shorter distance? Like a sprint/oly to knock the cobwebs off? If IMAZ were my AAA race, then I'd go with the shorter distance that I know won't harm my prep vs. something that may do some damage. I did a sprint prior to IMWI (about 6 weeks) and had no trouble doing a longer bike later in the day and the next day and continuing on in my training. Plus it was good mojo boost. So I'd recommend that vs. the longer HIM distance.
  • Terry, I've now completed 4 ironmans w no racing in the 12 wks before. That will change in 2012. Partly because I don't think I am coming in sharp with a long period of no racing & partly because like you said we are not all the same. Based on your analysis of your own situation I think you should race.

  • My personal experience has been the faster you race the less time you on on your and therefore the faster you can recover. Crowie only ran for 1:11 in vegas...running for 1:11 after a 2:10ish bike is a lot different then running for 1:40+ after a 2:40+ bike.

    I also know that when I was doing high volume run training (like many of the pros do) my legs were used to the abuse and would recover much quicker. When I switched to lower volumen training I noticed right away that recover took longer after races.

  • Terry - It sounds like you really want to do this race, so the questions become, how to manage that without blowing a hole in your IM AZ prep.

    1. First, It's along way from AK to PHX, so planning for the travel and how that will affect your training needs to be factored in, as well as DVT avoidance on the way back.

    2. Your plan is to use this as a training day. That day is a 3 hour bike and a 30 minute run, adding a sterady OWS of 35 minutes is no big deal, but going from a 30 minute brick to a near 2 hour brick is another thing entirely, even if you haven't done that week's long run. Recovery will primarily depend on how much you work that run.

    3. Weeks 4 and 3 before an IM are the time of peak fatigue, in my experience. I'm always on the knife edge at that point. AND, the long run and the RR in the week of Oct 24, IMO, are the MOST important training days of the last two months before the IM.

    4. Putting # 2 & 3 together, It may be necessary simply bag the post-race Mon-Wed workouts, or seriously diminsh their intensity and volume, in order to be able to get the necessary benefit from the Thurs Long Run and the weekend's RR.

    Final thoughts: For myself, I don't see the point of doing a race unless I'm going to RACE. If what you want is a training day in the sun, book the flight to Phoenix, and just do the EN workouts as planned. If what you want is a race, then commit to the post race recovery you'll need to get the proper training benefit from your final long workouts. Doing a race at "training speed/intensity" leaves a bad taste in my mouth, one I would not want to carry into IM AZ.

  • I have done a Half either 3 or 4 weeks before every IM I have done. Does it hurt training and recovery, not really sure. Is it fun, yep! While you can certainly get this from racing before 3 weeks before the race I think people often do not race enough when they focus on an IM. Racing is different than training, just is. You learn a lot racing.
  • I share the same opinion as Chris G. Racing is the fun part in all this. More racing and less training!!! ;-)
  • If you are working towards Kona or a podium spot, better listen to the WSM's.... but if it were me, I'd be all in.

    Lake Placid this year was my first IM. Seven weeks before the race I did the Mooseman weekend. Saturday was an Oly and Sunday was the HIM. I was told by many that I'd be putting a hole in my training, but I felt that not doing them was going to put a hole in my happyness - so I did them.

    I rode the Oly with an IF=0.88 and ran a 48:09 - a PR for me (IF=0.9). The next day in the HIM I rode an IF=0.83 than ran 1:53 (IF=0.8). Two weeks later I did a 4 day training camp at LP. I swam 5 miles, biked 168 and ran 25. Lots of fatigue but I had so much fun doing it. That is what it is all about, right?

    Next year I don't have an IM planned but I have already signed up for Mooseman weekend (Oly-HIM) and Timberman weekend (Sp-HIM). Still on the fence if I should sign up for Pumpkinman weekend (Sp-HIM). I really like the multi race weekends - they are just so much fun.

    I say "Go for it!"
  • Roll over to Endurance Corner's site; my old 1:1 coach Kevin Purcell just posted an excellent article regarding doing this double.
  • @ Bill - interesting read. Thanks for the info. I would definitely not think I could gain more fitness in the final 4 weeks. I would want to continue my fitness I had at that point, however good it is, and aim to maintain until IMAZ.

    So the folks that have done it say that they didn't think it hurt them. I haven't seen anyone say "I did it, and it really hurt my IM".

    I'm sure I will carry a certain amount of fatigue into that weekend (end of week 8), but probably less than if I trained my plan to the letter, which I'm sure won't happen. Not that I'm planning on intentionally bagging workouts. I just know that my life will get in the way of hitting all the workouts, just like last year.

    @ Al - Agree with you on the important workouts of week 9 and can make it a point to do them, even if I have to take Mon-Wed off. And as far as racing, I don't see the point of "not racing" either. My intention will be to race it towards a potential PR, but not necessarily podium, etc. I will know before I get off the bike if a PR is in the cards and if it's not, then a course specific pacing run will be in order. Cross the line, get my $200 medal, and go eat.

    Finally, I appreciate the comments from everyone that mentioned fun. I do triathlon to race because I really don't consider training fun....at all. So approaching almost one year of training without racing, has not been fun. I think I'm gonna have me some fun.

    I will continue this story by reporting specifics related to this topic in my 2nd race rehearsal report as well as my race report.
  • I think you should do it...but part of me sez if you are going to be in sunny phoenix you should train ALL THREE DAYS in the glorious sun. I assume you don't work for the Alaskan Tourism Association, per your original post, so make the most of the time and money you are spending. That's just me though...
  • @ Coach - I will be there for 10 days. I was planning on training 9 of them inclusive of two whole weekends, mostly focusing on bike and run. Believe me, I will be making the most of the trip there, and to Kona at the end of this month.
  • Perfect!!! Can't wait to see you on the Big Island!
  • @Terry: I will be really interested in your post thoughts. I really enjoy SOMA and specifically did not sign up because this will be my first IM. In fact, to avoid the temptation, I am going out to Phoenix the weekend before. Next year may be different. Also curious on your thoughts for the RR, I was looking at riding 2 loops on Beeline to Bush Highway, about 45 miles RT each, then a third loop to Shea, the IM turn around. Is the Tempe Town Beach a good site for transition for RR, I know it would be better for the run than another loop in Beeline. Also, curious about how you carried all your nutrition for the RR, again, I have not done on of those for IM and abviously a lot more fluid to carry. Best of luck!
  • @ David - last year I did my one good RR on the full course. The urban starts/stops + traffic were a pain though. That being said, Tempe Beach park is where I want to transition. So I'm planning on parking there and starting there. My current plan is ride from there to Beeline (8 miles), Beeline to Shea + 3.5 miles (14 miles), turnaround, back to Casino Arizona (there is a light there just prior to the 101 freeway) (17 miles), do a loop from Casino Arizona to Shea + 3.5 miles (34 miles), then do another loop from Casino Arizona to Shea + 3.5 miles and back to Tempe Beach Park (39 miles) which will total ~112 miles. After a quick transition at the car, I will do my run on course.

    As for fluids/nutrition - for the RR I will use my PD aquacell bottle up front and a couple of bottles in my x-lab wing behind my seat. I will have 6 hours of concentrated Infinit on me and three bottles of water. My plan will be to stop at the convenience store at the end of the Beeline to refill my water bottles once during the ride. It's a RR so I don't care about the bottles and weight. During the race I won't need to carry that much water.
  • @ Terry - I happened to stumble across the following blog by Greg Welch...directed to age groupers not pros. Not standard EN advice so you have to know yourself pretty well if you decidet to go this route. Good Luck!

    "The Ironman takes around 12-16 weeks to prepare - given that you have a good base in the sport. During the 16-week period you should incorporate 2-3 races, one a half Ironman if possible and that should be done no later than 5 weeks out. You can also do a super- brick session (long swim, long bike and transition run) to replace the Half. The other races are sharpeners, as it’s always good to take your mind away from the constant grind and monotonous regime of the same roads and trails."
  • Just wanted to post a follow-up to this thread. It turns out this race absolutely did NOT affect my ironman. But I want to reiterate that I did this race on no rest. I did a 3 hour ride the day before. I also did not ride or run as hard as I would in a normal HIM. That being said, it was a race, and I was racing. I was tired, though, so I couldn't go harder, even if I had wanted to. I was able to train the following week but at less intensity. My 2nd race rehearsal the following weekend definitely WAS affected by this race. I had a poor race rehearsal, but my first race rehearsal went great so I wasn't worried. My taper went great and my ironman was near perfect.
  • Great to hear. In reality, your results sound very much like someone would expect... You didn't have a killer result during the HIM because you were not rested for it...and the following weekend's big workout suffered. But that's exactly what anyone would say! Maybe sometimes we over think these things.
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