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When the power / pace feels too easy...

Okay, so I did my testing 5 weeks ago to establish my power and pace zones.

I think my FTP test was spot-on, because the Z4 efforts are just hard enough to make me really suffer without crushing me for days afterwards.  In short, I feel like I'm right where I should be - seriously challenged but not self-destructing.

The run is a whole other animal.

I tested with a Vdot of 39.25 (7:52/mile for 5k test), and ran through the Wiki page link to find my pace zones.  By the way, the 7:52 pace at the time was very challenging, but it was also 90+ degrees and humid as hell.

The trouble is, the Z4 intervals when running just don't seem to put the hurt on me like the bike Z4 intervals.

For example, last night I decided to work outside the zones and find my RPE Z4 run while doing my track intervals.

My Vdot indicates Z4 (TP) should be 8:22/mile...I did my warmup yesterday at 8:20 for a mile and felt great, quite easy (note: weather was 60 degrees and driving rain).  I then ripped off my 800m intervals at 7:44 and 7:42 respectively, and THAT felt like a Z4 interval.  Then a 1600m interval at 8:02 to wind it down before the cooldown.  I could have done the 1600 faster, probably around 7:45-7:50, but opted to ease it down for the last mile because I was working "off plan".

That's the data...now the question: I'm sure my true Vdot is higher than what I tested 5 weeks ago, based on temperature changes and (hopefully) increased fitness.  Should I wait another 3 weeks in these zones and do the retest as scheduled, or adjust my run zones right now according to what I feel based on RPE and estimate my new Vdot?  Or, alternatively, do I just retest next week to straighten those zones out with hard data?

I want to maximize ROI for the time I spend running, just like the time I spend biking...but don't want to step outside the current plan without some feedback.  Thanks.

PS - This feeling of the running target zones being "too easy" wasn't just a one-time occurance, which I could chalk up to just having a break-out performance...it's every time I run.  That's why I think the Vdot is out of whack with reality.

Jay

Comments

  • I have all kinds of issues with Vdot testing because Houston is like a humid blast furnace the majority of the year. My early-spring running feels great followed by 6 months of pure hell and wondering where the little speed I had went. I have to run by RPE from April-Oct. I know I'm in better shape now than I was in March but I can't run as fast as I could in March because it's still 100 degrees here. I did a sprint tri a month ago and the 7:30 pace for 3.65 miles almost gave me a heart attack. I ran that same pace during an Oly race on April 3rd (which included two trips over an elevated bridge which slowed times down considerably) and that didn't seem as tough as the sprint run in the blazing heat.

    I suggest you take a look at this: http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/HeatPaceCalc/tabid/231/Default.aspx
  • So since I'm guessing you haven't done a lot of vDot testing, it could be that being the first of your tests you didn't "really" push as hard as you could. Some tricks people use for vDot tests are to not look at the watch at all, racing a 5k, running with people they know are faster, etc.

    But a more significant thing that you should notice is that Z4 running is not the same as Z4 biking. Z4 running is not what you ran that 5k test at, while Z4 biking is that level that you tested at. You shouldn't feel completely shelled after a Z4 running session. Tired and like you worked hard, but not completely shelled. Your ability to recover from runs is much different than the bike. This is taken into account with the intensity and volume done. Also, shelling yourself on the run is likely to have a strong downstream affect on the other sports more than on the bike. And this early in the OS you likely have little accumulated fatigue which also can explain why you are easily hitting zones.

    If you deserve faster zones then you should run faster. There won't be anything wrong with replacing a hard run workout with a vDot test this early if you really think it is that off-base, but make sure you consider the differences above. Good luck!
  • I've also noticed what can be a disconnect between what I would call my mile repeat pace and the T-pace/Z4 assigned by a VDot. For me, this is about 20" per mile:

    • If I'm doing mile repeats I drop into an RPE that I would associate to hard effort on the bike, one that I could sustain for about 10' or so. This yields about a 6:30-40 mile. My 5k VDot test pace is about 6:25 but I'm dyin'.
    • That pace yields a T-pace of about 6:55-7, I think, which feels too easy when I'm doing mile repeats, but fine if I'm doing, say, 15-20' of T-pace running in the middle of a run.

    The net is that I do the mile repeats at the faster pace because I have a good sense of how that session fits with my other sessions, etc. IOW, about zero chance that I'm going to drill myself so hard in a mile repeat session that it will compromise future workouts.

    The short answer is that I think it's ok to train a bit faster than your test VDot stuff, assuming that a large part of the discrepancy can be heat, in your case, learning how to test better, and in general becoming more familiar with these kinds of efforts and running with pace in general. Also assuming that you always do today's workout with an eye towards it's affect on downstream workouts.

  • Details differ, but Rich describes my experience pretty well.
  • Hi Jay
    While I am no WSM (or coach for that matter), I think it is important to recognise that the training adaptions from operating in one zone compared to another (eg Zone 4-low, compared to Zone 3-high) are reasonably similar. This is because the traing effect changes continuously as the intensity changes — rather than the training effect changing abruptly between the zones — I hope I expressed that clearly?

    The net is that you would still get a good training adaption doing TP intervals at, say 8 mins/mile, even though your "correct" TP was, say 7 mins 45 /mile.

    As I am closing in on 60 years of age, my biggest issues usually are around recovery.

    Cheers
    Peter
  • Jay:

    Building on what Rich says, I think it's important to vary your pace for a given workout based on RPE, how you feel that day and the intended purpose of the workout. That's why it's important to be a student of the system rather than a wattage/pace slave. Being a slave will get you fit, but being a student is where the real improvement comes. I often do what Rich suggests. On runs that include mile repeats, I often find I'm 20-30" per mile faster on my intervals than my pace guidelines would suggest. If I don't do this, I don't feel as though I'm getting the work in that fits the purpose of the session. Conversely, if I tried to keep that pace for a 20-30 minute T-pace run, that extra 20-30" seems to be too much.
  • Thank you all for your feedback on what, after reading it again, may have come off as a bit convoluted. Here's a brief summary and update...

    @ Jennifer and Rich: I could definitely tell that there was some small effect from my harder run on Wednesday when I did my bike workout on Thursday. I still hit all my Z4 intervals on the bike, but it felt slightly more challenging - perhaps as a result of the Wed run pace being faster than Z4 per the Vdot specification. I wasn't "shelled", but could feel some fatigue even from the first interval. In actuallity, I really kind of enjoyed it because it's the first time I have had that sensation on a subsequent bike after a run workout on this plan thus far. Perhaps I will continue to go about 15" faster than the Z4 run specification until the CTS number goes up later into the OS plan. If I feel it will become unsustainable, or that my bike sessions begin to suffer as a result, I'll back off immediately. I have no ego about how slow I am right now :-)

    @ Peter: I think what you're trying to tell me is that there aren't a series of biological "switches" that turn on and off. "Okay, body, we've gone from a 7:45 to a 7:30, switch off the aerobic engine and let's start burning only sugar!" type of thing...it's more of a continuum where the prevalence of energy systems rise and fall depending upon the pace, but that they are all contributing all the time, and just stressing all of them to become more efficient is really the end-game here.

    @ Steve: Thanks for your input here. I tend to be very analytical in my approach, pouring over data and numbers is what I do for a living, so it carries over into my triathlon life as well. I strive to learn all I can, provided it is constructive and informative, and agree that for a mile repeat the Z4-15" is probably a good place for me, and 20-30' would be way too long at that pace to not sacrifice tomorrow's workout, which I have no intention of doing.

    Thanks, everyone!

    Jay
  • Jay, yes, it's a continuum, not a switch. And a large part of the growth of the self-coached athlete is learning how to manage your training by observing the interaction of the object (pace and power) with the subjective (HR and RPE). The big one, for me, is workout timing. I have some great PM training opportunities organized/managed by single-sport folks: tempo runs, track workouts, hammer rides, etc. But they rarely, rarely work the AM stuff I have planned for the next day. The net is that my AM workouts are by far my most important, more for the 24hr spacing between workouts than for any other reason.

    For example, I want to fire up a Monday or Wed evening PM group tempo run through the winter into the spring. Meet a bar at about 6pm, hammer the shit out of ourselves for 45', have a beer, home by 7:30p. But that has serious implications for the Tues and/or Thurs AM riding opportunities I have with a couple of climbing types...and so the puzzle continues

  • You bring up a great point, Rich, and I've never been able to get a handle on how best to take care of it. (I'm wandering off-topic now, but since I started the thread, I'm going to roll with it!)

    My "life" schedule only permits me to get workouts in during the week from about 6pm until whenever I finish. My weekend workouts can usually be slated for the morning, which I try to do as regularly as possible.

    I have a hell of a time, come race morning, to get my body to start the warmup and the race, because the bulk of my workouts are in the evening. I try getting up extra early, getting in a little spin, jog, some caffeine, and a whole litany of things to tell it, "hey, dummy, it's race time". But my body is just really well-conditioned to doing everything in the evenings and I have yet to be able to get it ready to go for the morning races. I feel really sluggish.

    Any suggestions from you guys on how to do the bulk of training in the evenings and still be able to really "get up" for the early morning races?

    I PR'd my open 10K in an evening race this summer, and I'm thoroughly convinced that the race start time had something to do with it. When the gun went off, my body just "knew" it was time to go...normally if I run 10K in the morning, the first two miles are a slog. This time, my body just responded really well.

    Jay
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