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I want to get faster... 5 week run block? Please help...

I had a good 1st yr of IM training this past year, thanks to EN.  I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to get faster and my obvious week leg is the run.  Recently at IMLou I did a 1:11:xx swim, a 5:53:xx bike, and a 4:36:xx run.  I'm 6'-1" and raced at 185lbs.

Swim:  I just think it's not worth swimming at all until early next summer, because even if I did nothing but swim train for 6 months, the best case is I take 5-10 mins off my swim time which just isn't worth the effort.  I don't get tired swimming, but I'm not fast (or slow).

Bike:  I clearly have some potentially big improvements to make on the bike.  When I exited the OS last yr, my FTP was 310W but it leaked throughout the summer once on the tri-bike and with longer training, so I raced IMLou at an FTP of 273W.  Next yr, I need to figure out how to get my FTP much higher in the OS, but almost more importantly, I need to figure out how to keep that FTP throughout the season and not lose it over the course of the yr.  I would welcome all of your thoughts on how to do this.

Run:  Now for the dreaded run...  I used to hate running.  I hate it a lot less now.  But I clearly have the most room for improvement here.  I started the OS last yr with a 5k vDot of 42 and got this up to 46 throughout the yr, however, my 10k vDot was only 42 when I raced at IMLou, so it falls off for me pretty dramatically with the longer distance.  I have 0 run background.  I have never run an open Mary, and I have actually never really run any open running races of any distance.  I have an OLY triathlon this sunday, but then really nothing on the schedule until I start the OS (was thinking Nov OS).  What do you think of me doing a 5 week run-only block before I start the Nov OS?  I was thinking of looking for some local 5k, 10k, or half-mary's to enter this fall and winter.  What is the best way to get the biggest improvements in my running?  Is a 5 weeks block long enough for this or should I do like an 8 week run specific block, then start my OS in late Nov or Dec?  Should I focus on all short distance speed work, or longer distance stuff?  or both?  Is there a hack plan I can upload and follow?  Should I opt in to a Marathon plan (and not actually run a marathon) or should I run one? I'm not really interested in doing an open Mary unless you say I need to.  Should I do a couple of massive volume weeks say every other week in the 5 weeks as I still have a lot of fitness because IMLou was only 3 weeks ago.  I do not need any more of a mental break, I'm ready to rock and roll, I just want some direction or a plan.

Thanks in advance for your help.  All comments and suggestions are welcome.

Comments

  • The conventional running (not EN, necessarily) response would be to get one longer run in per week during your block. A lot of runners would say to keep a 2 hour run all winter as their long run. Under the circumstances, I think that's probably excessive, but I think a ~90 min run with some tempo work near the end is not out of order, given that your VDOT wasn't holding up for longer distances.

    You do not need to do an open marathon, and the trouble with them is that they require a huge recovery (plus a taper if you're doing it seriously). The recovery from an open marathon raced reasonably hard is much worse than the recovery from a half ironman. Not THAT different from the recovery from a full ironman (because you run faster, obviously). So, if you do a half-way serious marathon, it ends up hving to be one of your "A" events

    I think a 5- or 8-week segment would both help out. There is something to be said for starting the OS with one of the big groups, which would push me to the 5- week choice.
    An alternate would be to take that 8 up to 9 weeks or so, then an easy week and start the OS a full month later.

  • JW, asked Patrick this very question on the chat last night. I think you are in the same boat as me since you will be entering the Nov OS. Patrick gave me 4 workouts to use during the weeks. No threshold intervals as you will get your fill of them come OS. I'm going off memory here, will email you them when I get home, but here goes:

    1 hour steady run. 40' at goal half marathon pace +15", 20' at goal HM pace -15"
    30' easy run with strides
    Hill run with bounding. I have no idea what he meant here. Said it was in Wiki but I can't find it. Maybe he meant MN wiki. Will clarify with him.
    Last run was 6-8 3' hard intervals, thinking Z5, with 2' rest.

    Obviously warmup, cooldown as needed.
  • Bounding is sort of an exaggerated "stride" going uphill. High knees and the like.
  • About 6-7 years ago, I made a dramatic breakthrough in my IM run time after doing two things in the off season:

    • November-Dec, I did nothing but follow a "serious runner's" 10K training program, aiming for an achieving a 10K PR.

    • Jan-Apr, I followed a marathon program from the same source, leading to a successful mid-April race. (I think the same thing can be achieved by doing a half marathon).

    I bike commuted to work, and kept my routine twice weekly swimming during this time. Once the weather warmed up, I did once a week group rides on Saturday. Otherwise, I was a runner that winter. Ever since then, my IM runs have been my strong point.

    I don't know if this specific strategy is what worked for me. Maybe, after 5 years or so of structured triathlon training, I was ready to take advantage of the focused work, and any type of intense run training would have accomplished the same thing.

  • There was a group last year that did some of Daniels' running blocks and had very good success. Might be something to consider.
  • Thanks all-- Since I've really only had 1 year of structured triathlon training in my life, I think I still have a lot of improvement to do in my biking as well and I am excited to tackle OS #2 for me. So I don't think I'm quite willing to do a whole winter of dedictated running, but I will look into that for a block of either a "Serious Runners" or "Daniels" run block. Do you think just 5 weeks of this would be long enough to do me any good or should I aim for 8-9 weks as William mentioned and start the OS in Dec?
  • What about 12 weeks and starting the OS in Jan? Does this give you enough time for IMNYC?
  • I was part of the Daniels clan last year. After IMWI, I decided the fun thing I wanted to do with my fitness was run 50 days in a row. Serious fitness bump. I was mostly a runner all last winter, playing with Daniels 5-10k plan and a mary plan scaled down for a 1/2 mary. Two big vdot bumps came after the first set of running 50 days in a row -- most of these runs were EP, 30 minute runs and learning to love to quality workouts with long threshold runs and tempo (40 minutes). And the second huge one came in the spring, with all the base running fitness on my legs and then running consistently and doing quality speedwork sessions.

    I think you have a lot of running options to get faster. You just have to choose which way you want to overload your legs. I'd choose the one that sounds most fun and go from there.

     

  • JW, what about doing some double runs? I know how pressed you are for time with your job, so why not run for 30' early AM and maybe 45-60 at night? Not everyday but say 4-5 days a week. Throw in a long run and a tempo run on the non 2x days and you are all set. Will put lots of work in those legs with not the same cost. Patrick was doing 2 runs a day in his Kona prep.
  • @Beth-- I like that idea... maybe I'll try to do at least 30 days straight running. Maybe do a modified Daniels or Al's referenced 10k plan but mix in some easier runs on the "off" days.
    @Tucker-- Can you email me those run workouts that you mentioned Patrick gave you in the Monday night chatroom? To be honest 1 run per day is better for me in the mornings where I can do at least an hour maybe 75 minutes each day with at least 1 day a week longer and weekends could be longer as well. (I don't sleep) I also might do 2x a day once a week or so just to shake it up.
    @William, maybe I'll try to do at least ~2hr each Saturday or Sunday, maybe a couple 3-4 hour trail runs because those seem to be fun and not so hard on the joints...

    I guess I need to sit down and actually write out some sort of proper schedule/plan. I'm have been spoiled for the past yr just doing whatever my EN plan told me to do.

    Keep the suggestions coming if anybody has any other suggestions...
  • @John, the advice I gave Tucker was for a half marathon. For you, just looking to improve the run pre-OS with no other real goals...I say that you aim for a consecutive running block. Like 30 runs in 30 days. Nothing hard, nothing flashy, just good consistent running at a good high cadence. Do a random easy bike/swim, but it's all about the run.
  • John - What Beth and CoachP said.   Frequency is a great way to get the legs going.  I was with Beth last year for the daniels group and it made a difference for me.  I am still not super-fast but I am faster than I was.  It's all relative, I guess.

    Here is the link to the Daniels book:  http://tinyurl.com/3vfntdb  

    I am using it for IMAZ this year and currently in week 10 of the HM/M program.  But is all started with frequency running.

  • @Patrick, we are trying to rope John into the half as well.

    @John, how about this? I will run everyday until the Nov OS starts with you. I've actually found a couple local 5k races October 23 that we can use for our Vdot test as well? Sound good? We can start a thread, group, or just email each other. So I ran the half Sunday, then a couple days off but have run everyday since Wednesday and will keep it going.
  • Asked the same question at this time last year, leading into the Dec OS. In the end, I ended up following the group's advice and mashed up the following resources:

    *For the first two weeks:
    -http://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/How_to_Kill_Your_10k_PR_258.html (I think it was Al Truscott who turned me onto this)

    *For the remaining 6 weeks:
    Daniels' 5/10k plan, with the addition of a weekly 90' run.

    *6 weeks (so, 2 of the ST stuff and 4 of the Daniels stuff) brought me the speed gains I was after, but I plateaued after that.

    I'll probably do the same this year.

    ps
    Forgot about Beth's 50 runs in 50 days. Bloody impressive, that.
  • Consistency, consistency, consistency. Run. Run often. Run as much as you can recover from. Don't worry about speed right now (plenty of opportunity in the OS), just get your body ready to soak up the gains in the OS.
  • woulld it be a good thing or bad thing to do the 30/30 in gearing up for an IM?
  • Your goal is to build far on your fast now. Don't do anything which might compromise your ability to do the scheduled long runs, bricks, and bikes at the power/pace indicated in the training plan.  If you don't have a long history as a runner, my opinion is that running every day at this stage of an IM prep is asking for injury and/or overtraining or burnout. I've done very well over the years running 3-5 days a week at this stage, 25-33 miles a week max.

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