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Is hill training overrated?

My impression is there's no need for any kind of hill training (on the bike) if you follow the OS and training plans as written.  Yet, I constantly hear about teammates doing hill rides and see cyclists here in LA doing long, steep canyon rides.  I even hear Rich talk about going up into the mountains for rides.

I'm pretty weak on the bike...is this something I should be incorporating?  I guess I'm not sure how.  I have access to long ascents up in the mountains, but a long climb doesn't exactly sync up with a typical EN workout with X number of intervals and X minutes of recovery. Also it would seem to reinforce a slow cadence.  But on the positive side it would force me to reach for higher wattage numbers for a longer period of time (I think).

I've done plenty of rolling hills but never any long, steady, steep climbing.  Any guidance on this...or should I stick to the trainer?

Comments

  • Hey Mac.

    I think the general view is that hill training is not necessary for success in following the EN plans, but it can certainly help. In part, I believe it arises from the fact that it is easier to push more watts while climbing vs the same watts on flat ground over time. I.e., there is typically a lot more mental focus requred to push FTP watts on a flat road vs going uphill - so you get more work with less mental effort, and it is time efficient training. If you climb a higher tempo, you also get more work done in less time for the same reason. As for cadence, the idea is to have the right gearning on board so you can spin as much as possible (>80 rpms) even on our long local canyons here in SoCal. I know that's aspirational for many, but it helps Plus, it gives you a break in terrain and you get the fun of descending the other side, eventually.

    As far as EN style work, I've found a couple local climbs that take about 20 min @ FTP and they are great training. Also, I've learned that you can back off and actually do intervals on a long climb by metering your effort. That's not going to be easy to do on a climb with lots of changes in grade, or at least it won't be easy going easier when the grade increases. However, if you can get onto one of the long, steadier climbs around here (for us, think Temescal, Latigo, even Topanga) that go for 5-7 miles @ 4-6% and you can modulate your effort to mimic intervals. It takes some practice, but it's a useful skill to learn, esp for group roadie rides so you can 'recover' marginally while still climbing.
  • Let me get this straight, you live in SoCal with year round access to great climbing and you are talking about a trainer? Wow I think I speak for all the cold weather peeps and say "WOW"!
    My advice would be to climb, climb, climb. As Tim says, you will learn how to moderate your effort if you must to hit certain workouts. If I were you I'd be doing hill repeats on those 4-6% climbs Tim mentions, 2 to 4 reps, then hit some flatter land to get the rest of the work in. It doesn't really matter if you do the workout as planned. If it calls for 48 minutes at threshold just make sure you get that or more in with your climbs, it doesn't matter if you don't get the 10', then 12' etc.
    Also, don't worry about cadence. Worry about getting your watts up, cadence will then take care of itself.
  • For what it's worth. After being with EN for several years now, my OS season last year maybe followed a prescribed EN workout, maybe 10% of the time. Rather my rides in the OS, and yes I also live in SoCal, consisted of outdoor riding the other 90% of the time. These outdoor rides were all tongue hanging out, fast, hard, and mostly massive climbing. At times close to 10K of ascent on some rides - Santa Monica Mtns or San Gabriel Mtns. I exited OS with an all time high FTP and when I transitioned off the road bike onto the tri bike on more flat and rolly type courses, I flew on the tri bike. The RPE on the Tri bike, on a flat course, going 22-25mph is shockingly easy compared to the long duration climbs at 6% - 10% grades. My tri friends who in all past years rode at same level as I, but did not join me on my massive winter and spring climbing rides, are still, today in Sept, loosing sight of my rear wheel within a few miles of a ride start, and I am constantly waiting several minutes for them a designated re-group points along the route. My two cents, if you have climbing rides as an option, particularly in the OS. GO CLIMB.
  • Required? No. A Good Idea? Only If You Want To Get Stronger. And that's physically as well as mentally. I have heard other EN folks say that they look at a workout that has say 2 x 20 at FTP and then 2 x 30 at 85% and they go to the mountains and just do that time as the hills allow them to -- not in the pretty order that we wrote it in. image
  • I only get to do those great climbs you have (Decker, Rock Store, Yerba, Piuma, etc) when I come to visit family in the Simi area once a year but if I had them nearby I'd be on them weekly.  Get out there!  If you find the climbs are forcing you to a really low cadence you should consider modifying your gearing.  I do find it easier to make the required power while going uphill.  

  • If the biggest North TX hill wasn't hill repeats on a highway overpass, I'd be all over that!
  • Thanks for all the input...sounds like a plan.  I have a compact and 11-28 so I should be able to keep the cadence up.  Last season (my first with EN) I followed the OS plan to a T, mostly indoors so I could stare at the computer and make sure I was in the correct zones.  I'll loosen up this OS, take my weekend rides outside and see what happens.

    Do you ignore your FTP on hill intervals and just go for it?  Or do you keep to your FTP "ceiling" to prevent injuries from coming on?

  • @Mac - for myself, I just rode as hard for as long as I could without regard to what my FTP may have been. I rode on several occasions with Coach Rich and believe me, if I was concerned about not exceeding my FTP on those rides, I would have been dropped by the group and riding solo miles behind. Again my two cents - the OS is time period to raise the left side of your power curve as high as possible. One good way to do that is ride hard on those outdoor OS rides.
  • @Mac: I'm more or less with Dave. I think it's useful to have the watts to look at, but you're not really likely to injure yourself with over-effort biking. Impact next days' training? Yes, that's possible, or indeed probable. I like to use FTP as a guide on long climbs like those mentioned on this thread and play around with just doing the work at those ranges. FTP isn't a precise science and is probably +/- 10 watts on any given day based on any number of physical and mental factors .. so if your plan says 2x20, 3x12 or whatever, then just go ride up at FTP-ish for 40 or 35 min and see how you do. Maybe you crack, maybe you can do it for an hour -- either way, doing it often will make you faster.
  • Good discussion.

    The bike intervals, probalby in all of the plans, should be looked on as a guide so that everyone, whether or not they have access to great outdoor riding opportunities, has a very detailed guide on which to base their workouts. As Patrick said, you could easily add up the scheduled FTP/Z4 time in a workout and ride your bike anywhere trying to accumulate that amount of FTP time, in whatever manner you wanted, across your entire workout. Same for the 85%/Z3 time. As others have said, doing so on a climb vs flat ground vs a trainer is just easier, mentally, and you'll likely put out more watts as well.

    Very valuable to have climbs of ~15-60'+ in length that you can repeat often. Start/end an interval at the bottom/top and track the progession of your watts and time over time. This will give you a number that combines FTP and body comp goals.

    Climbing is also just crazy time efficient because you can work much harder for longer, and usually safer, than you can on flat ground. The most time efficient workout in the San Gabriel Valley is my repeats of Chantry Flats. 3.2mi @ 6%. Takes me ~14' to ride to the bottom, and that's uphill as well so a great warmup. Takes me 18-21' to climb, depending on how hard I'm going or fit/fat I am, and about 6-7' to descend. Repeat 2-3x's. These days I do #1 at about 90-5%, #2 at TT effort, as hard as I can go, and if I finish at higher than 107% I take that as a signal to bump my FTP, #3 as 30' on, about 45' off, going as hard as I can go during the "on's," about 135-140%. That whole workout, from door to door, takes me about 1:45, is ~150-60 TSS and ~1500kj before breakfast.

    In short, don't think...just climb...a lot...and very, very hard.

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